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squale
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Joined: Feb 01, 2005
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:36 pm    Post subject: Can't disconnect the power from my phone lines outside Reply with quote Back to top

I got Vonage and I am trying to plug the Vonage adapter into one of the phone jacks in my house so I can power ALL of the phone jacks in my house with Vonage. My house is only 2 years old, I have 4 phone jacks all with Cat 5 (I think), each phone jacks wire has 4 twisted pairs of wire. Each phone jacks wire seems to go directly to the outside phone box on my house. I also have an alarm system in my house. So how it is right now is the main phone line comes into the box outside from the poll, then it goes through the green and red wire into my alarm panel, then out of the panel with the brown and grey wire and back into the outside phone box, then inside the phone box, each of my 4 inside phone jacks are twisted together using their blue and white with blue strip wires that connect to the brown and gray wires from the alarm system. Then the blue and white with blue lines wires go throughout my house to each of the 4 phone jacks. Now I went outside to the phone box and I disconnected the plug in the box, went back inside my house, picked up my landline analog phone and was still able to hear sounds when pressing the keys (so power is still going to the phone). I then went back out to the phone box, and I removed the red and green wire totally from the wire terminals, went back inside, picked up my phone and pressed buttons and still could hear beeps so it was still powered. Now I am totally confused as to how the phone can still have power, everything in the box outside is disconnected. The only thing I can think of is maybe the phone lines are being powered from my alarm panel's ac power or backup battery? could this be possible? I don't know what else to try but I am afraid to plug my Vonage phone adapter into the phone jack while I can still get power through the jack.

also, each of my 4 phone jacks are some sort of 'Leviton' jack and ALL four twisted pair seem to be permanetly connected to the phone jack. Here is the jack: http://www.smarthome.com/8555.html
I am not used to this and I don't know how to get around this because I am going to use the green and white with green lines pair to power my alarm system and then use the blue and white with blue lines pair to power all the phone jacks in my house as it is doing now.
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squale
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Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I just opened up my alarm panel and I disconnected the plug from the RJ-31X jack and then my phones were completely dead throughout the jacks in my house, so for some reason my alarm panel is POWERING my phone jacks, is this normal? will I destroy the Vonage phone adapter if I plug it into a jack that is powered from my alarm panel?
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Steve48
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

It sounds as if you're doing the right things here. Some phones- cordless ones in particular- will make beeping sounds even if you disconnect them from the phone line completely. Could that be happening here? I don't suppose you have a voltmeter that you could use to actually check the voltage on the line? It's typically around 50 volts when connected to an active phone service.

Be aware that some alarm systems have trouble connecting using Voip phones. We'll address that issue when we get to it.

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Steve48
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

squale wrote:
I just opened up my alarm panel and I disconnected the plug from the RJ-31X jack and then my phones were completely dead throughout the jacks in my house, so for some reason my alarm panel is POWERING my phone jacks, is this normal? will I destroy the Vonage phone adapter if I plug it into a jack that is powered from my alarm panel?


That's a very real danger. Don't plug the Vonage adapter into the wall until you understand what's going on.

I was going to suggest that maybe you pulled the wrong plug in the outside box, but I see that you completely disconnected the red and green pair feeding the alarm box. That should have gotten rid of any outside line if pulling the plug didn't. It certainly sounds as if the alarm box is somehow putting voltage on the line. Try plugging it back in and turning its internal power off (including battery backup). See what that does.

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squale
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Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

okay I will try disconnecting both the AC power and the battery backup from the alarm panel and then I will turn the system back on and see if I still get beeps through my phone (this is a CORDED land line phone by the way that does NOT have a battery in it).

is this normal for an alarm system to be sending power through the phone line?

also, could you help me with these phone jacks in the wall that have 4 sets of twisted pair connected to each jack.... I am not sure how I am going to plug a Vonage adapter into the jack if ALL of the 4 twisted pair are connected to the jack..
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squale
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

okay I did the following:

1.) disconnected the ac power to the alarm panel, phone still had power going to it because the alarm battery was still connected and powering the alarm system.

2.) disconnected the alarm battery so now the alarm system was totally powered down, the phone had NO power to it, NO BEEPS, nothing, completely dead.

3.) plugged JUST the ac power back into the alarm panel, NO battery, picked the phone up, the phone HAD power again and beeped when I pressed the keys on the phone.

So the conclusion is that as long as the alarm system has power going to it, the phone jacks are POWERED in my house, should this be the case?

in fact, if I pick up the phone and I hit a certain number sequence on the keypad, I can get a status report from my alarm system through the phone. And then the alarm panel keeps saying 'phone trouble', so it is monitoring the phone line, it knows there is no dial tone on the line, but I don't understand why it is powering the phone line?
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j-card
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Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 119
Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:11 am    Post subject: Doing the lineman Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, lets get this taken care of for you!

First... Undo everything that you did, once you do that, leave the wall outlets alone... they are fine Wink

Once that is done, go to the little grey box outside, and remove the incoming wires from your current (or past) telco... If there are multiple lines in your house, remove them all, making sure that you tape them tighty with some quality electricians tape, or vinyl tape. Make sure that you do not do anything to the lines going into your house. You should only be removing one or two pairs of leads from the box and taping.

Once that is done, seal the box back up, and get out of that chilly weather!

Test a jack from a corded or cordless phone. If you can press a button and hear the DTMF tones, then your security system is supplying power to the phone line, and you need to turn that off. To do that will depend on your preticular security system. If this is the case, please take some detailed pictures and provide with any information you have on the security system to get the fastest resolution!

If you do not hear the tones, then to be on the safe side, take a voltmeter (or a standard multimeter, nothing fancy) and check all pairs for any voltage. If there is, go out into that cold weather and ensure that all incoming lines have been removed, and if they have follow the same steps above. If there is no voltage on the lines, plug your adapter into the selected wall socket, and away you go!

Hope to hear back soon! I am finnaly back in Canada, so I can actually work again Smile

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squale
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

okay I did all that you said, I have only 1 line coming into the house, and this pair of wires is disconnected from the screw terminals outside in the telco box. I also unplugged the plug in the box as well. I left the inside wiring and jacks alone. I then unplugged the pigtail coming out of the alarm panel from the RJ-31X jack, now I have dead lines. When the RJ-31X is plugged in, I am getting voltage through the lines.

So my alarm system IS powering the phone lines. So right now I have that pigtail unplugged from the RJ-31X jack, then I plugged the Vonage adapter into one of my wall outlets and now all the other wall outlets work fine. BUT I don't have my alarm system hooked into the phone line now.

my alarm system is the GE (ITI) Concord Ultra with voice card, x10 module, the whole works.
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j-card
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Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 119
Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject: And the verdict is... Reply with quote Back to top

If you have the owners and/or installation manual, now would be the time to dig that up.
Also, if you could take some pictures of the unit and post the, it would be greatly appreciated!

I will snoop around online and see if I can find anything about that system, and hopefully get a copy of those manuals!

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squale
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I talked to a security system installer and they said this sounds weird but it still SHOULD NOT damage the Vonage phone adapter because he said that the voltage amount the alarm system is putting out through the phone lines is probably only 4-5V so it's very low and won't hurt anything. He said that the phone companies can put out between 70-90 volts over the phone line so this is why the Vonage phone adapter might be damaged if your telco jack is still hooked up

here are the user manuals for my alarm system:

installation manual: http://nassausecurity.com/iti/concordultraim.pdf

user manual: http://nassausecurity.com/usermanuals/concordultraum.pdf
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