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enodo
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Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:07 pm    Post subject: What does Disable NAT & Firewall actually do? Reply with quote Back to top

I have an RTP300 that is connected as follows:

Cable Modem <- RTP300
<- Netgear WGR614v6 ... Netgear WGPS616 <- Computer

The issue is that I have a double NAT going on, because the RTP does it and then the WGR does it again. Everything works, but I was wondering whether I could get rid of the double NAT

So the question is this: there's a page called Setting / Advanced Routing on the RTP300 that allows one to disable the firewall and NAT. But what does this mean precisely? When I do it, I still see 192.168.15.* addresses on the LAN side. It's still pulling down an IP number form the ISP, rather than leaving that to the WGR. It's still acting as a DNS, etc. (Though I can turn it off on the Basic Settings page.) It seems to me that without NAT, the device should act essentially as a neutral hub, just passing everything through to the WAN side, but that isn't what's happening...

I see in some of the threads (eg <a href="I have an RTP300 that is connected as follows:

Cable Modem <- RTP300
<- Netgear WGR614v6 ... Netgear WGPS616 <- Computer

The issue is that I have a double NAT going on, because the RTP does it and then the WGR does it again. Everything works, but I was wondering whether I could get rid of the double NAT

So the question is this: there's a page called Setting / Advanced Routing on the RTP300 that allows one to disable the firewall and NAT. But what does this mean precisely? When I do it, I still see 192.168.15.* addresses on the LAN side. It's still acting as a DNS, etc. (Though I can turn it off on the Basic Settings page.) It seems to me that without NAT, the device should act essentially as a neutral hub, just passing everything through to the WAN side, but that isn't what's happening... So what is it doing precisely?

I see in some of the threads (eg <a href="http://www.vonage-forum.com/ftopic9245.html">this one</a>)
that some people have linked the LAN side to the WAN side. I don't get the point of this. In that setup, doesn't the RTP300 just need to be connected on its WAN side to the other router, and nothing on the LAN side?

Thanks for any assistance...
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enodo
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Posts: 44

PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Don't know how I messed up the post... here it is again:

I have an RTP300 that is connected as follows:

Cable Modem <- RTP300
<- Netgear WGR614v6 ... Netgear WGPS616 <- Computer

The issue is that I have a double NAT going on, because the RTP does it and then the WGR does it again. Everything works, but I was wondering whether I could get rid of the double NAT

So the question is this: there's a page called Setting / Advanced Routing on the RTP300 that allows one to disable the firewall and NAT. But what does this mean precisely? When I do it, I still see 192.168.15.* addresses on the LAN side. It's still pulling down an IP number form the ISP, rather than leaving that to the WGR. It's still acting as a DNS, etc. (Though I can turn it off on the Basic Settings page.) It seems to me that without NAT, the device should act essentially as a neutral hub, just passing everything through to the WAN side, but that isn't what's happening...

I see in some of the threads (eg this one http://www.vonage-forum.com/ftopic9245.html )
that some people have linked the LAN side to the WAN side. I don't get the point of this. In that setup, doesn't the RTP300 just need to be connected on its WAN side to the other router, and nothing on the LAN side?

Thanks for any assistance...
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EzCo
Vonage Forum Evangelist
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 533
Location: Southeastern PA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The question I have for you is why do you think double NAT is causing you an issue? However, to answer your question, yes you can get rid of double NAT if you want, but it's not necessary. NAT must stay enabled on the router connected to the cable modem which, according to your diagram, is the RPT300. You can disable NAT on the WGR if you want.

FYI, don't connect the LAN to the WAN port on the same router, that is a total kludge, and you're right there is no point to it. Just connect the WAN port on the downstream router to a LAN/switch port on the upstream and you're done.

By connecting the WAN port to a LAN/switch port on the same router, then connecting another switch port on the same router to an upstream switch port they essentially did just connect the WAN port to an upstream router (switch in the case of the setup in the link you referenced). They just waisted two local switch ports to do it.
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enodo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

EzCo wrote:
The question I have for you is why do you think double NAT is causing you an issue? However, to answer your question, yes you can get rid of double NAT if you want, but it's not necessary. NAT must stay enabled on the router connected to the cable modem which, according to your diagram, is the RPT300. You can disable NAT on the WGR if you want.


The reason I want to disable the NAT on the RPT300 is that I often use ssh to work on a remote server. The problem is that after some period without traffic (relatively short, say 5-10 mins), the NAT closes the connection and I get logged off. The WGR does allow me to set the NAT timeout to a much longer time, but its irrelevant if the RPT300 is timing me out anyway.

I'd love to disable NAT on the WGR, but due to various bugs and limitations in the software, I can't get it to route the DHCP traffic to the machines connected to the access point in the other room.

So that brings me back to the original question... what does it mean to disable NAT on the RPT300? What actually happens when that setting is chosen?
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EzCo
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 533
Location: Southeastern PA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

In your setup, if you disable NAT on the RPT300 you won't be able to access the Internet. The NAT (actually PAT) function on the RPT300 allows all your internal IP addresses to be seen on the Internet as the IP address of the WAN interface on the RPT300 (the one it got from the cable modem).


Last edited by EzCo on Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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enodo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

When I tried it I was actually able to access the internet. Maybe it doesn't do anything.

What is PAT, and how is it different from NAT?
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bg4
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Joined: Aug 04, 2005
Posts: 164
Location: Long Island NY

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

remember that every setup is different. But this is why I did what I did.

setup modem -<> WRT54G <> RTP300

RTP300 lan to wan cable
RTP300 lan to WRT54G Lan

Reason I disabled NAT on RTP300 was so my network neighborhood would see all computers (including wireless) and especially printers because they are all in the 192.168.1.X subnet. The way I understand it that is the same reason I ran cable from WAN to LAN on RTP300.

I have tried connecting a Router to router and have never gotten it to work. It was a BEFSR41. My network runs perfect now if only Vonage caller Id would.

_________________
Bob-Long Island NY
Vonage Customer since August 8, 2005
ISP: Optimum Online
Router Motorola VT2442
Setup: SB4200>VT2442>Linksys WRT54G v2.2 (running WRT) wifi enabled-port 1 to switch>two PC's-
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EzCo
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 533
Location: Southeastern PA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

enodo wrote:
When I tried it I was actually able to access the internet. Maybe it doesn't do anything.

What is PAT, and how is it different from NAT?


Something is a little squirrely with your setup or the RTP300 isn't actually disabling NAT. Curious, did you reboot the 300 after you disabled NAT?

Technically NAT is when one IP address is translated to another IP address with no modification to the source TCP/UDP port. It's strictly a one-for-one basis. For every internal IP address, you need one external IP address to NAT to. PAT allows for many internal IP addresses to be translated to one external IP address and this is accomplished by modifying the source TCP/UDP port for each connection. PAT keeps accurate track of the translations by this method.
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NateHoy
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Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 2257
Location: New England

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

EzCo wrote:
enodo wrote:
When I tried it I was actually able to access the internet. Maybe it doesn't do anything.

What is PAT, and how is it different from NAT?


Something is a little squirrely with your setup or the RTP300 isn't actually disabling NAT. Curious, did you reboot the 300 after you disabled NAT?

Technically NAT is when one IP address is translated to another IP address with no modification to the source TCP/UDP port. It's strictly a one-for-one basis. For every internal IP address, you need one external IP address to NAT to. PAT allows for many internal IP addresses to be translated to one external IP address and this is accomplished by modifying the source TCP/UDP port for each connection. PAT keeps accurate track of the translations by this method.


Actually, NAT is many-to-one IP translation, PAT is port routing (picking a destination IP by which port is being used).

My NAT router needs one TCP/IP address from my ISP and routes packets back to my three (or more) devices which each have distinct IP addresses.

PAT (similar to "Port Triggering") would allow me to say "when a request comes in on port X, send it along to IP address y.y.y.y regardless of what the NAT tables tell you to do".

EDIT: My bad. The translation I am referring to that most people and router salesmen in particular call NAT is more properly called "NAPT". Sorry. You are technically correct, I just got caught up in the popular vernacular and not the technical one. Wink
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enodo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

bg4 wrote:
I have tried connecting a Router to router and have never gotten it to work. It was a BEFSR41. My network runs perfect now if only Vonage caller Id would.


My setup works fine and I have the WAN port of the WGR connected to a LAN port of the RTP. I didn't need any connection from the LAN side of the WGR to its WAN side. I can surf from a computer on the WGR side to the RTP because they're just on different subnets: the computers are 192.168.1.* while the LAN side of the RTP is 192.168.15.* (and I have the WAN side of the WGR is 192.168.15.2, which I made the DMZ machine). Other than the WGR I don't have any other machines on the LAN side of the RTP, but I could. They wouldn't be able to reach the machines inside the WGR network, however.

I think this is the preferable setup because the RTP implements Qualtiy of Service (QoS), so in principle net traffic gets lower priority than phone traffic. If you put the routers the other way around, you lose that feature.

In answer to EzCo's question - I think the RTP rebooted itself, but it's in the other room, so I didn't see the lights. I can try it again...

The documentation on the Linksys web screens are truly inferior to what Netgear provided.
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