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ChrisFix
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

vicmatson wrote:
The fact that Sprint PCS is doing a deal with Comcast,Cox, and Time Warner to bundle services makes this whole thing intense.

Voip has been getting a free ride in not paying for the data transport(broadband), but there has to be a middle ground.


But it really isn't a free ride - you and I are paying for it. Me, $40 / month to TWC and $25 to Vonage. I don't BitTorrent a single byte, so should I get a refund since I'm not using the same bandwidth as my neighbor? Vonage has to pay for their POP connections as well.

The concept that kills me is that they want to control my use of one specific service, not an overall bandwidth offering. This argument really is about the fact that they want a self-serving monopolistic stranglehold on a service that they can also offer.
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ChrisFix
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

http://www.ipdemocracy.com/archives/000656print.html

IP Democracy: BellSouth: We Might Want to Block Ports

networkaccess.gif(Las Vegas, NV) A panel of telco, cable, Voip and regulatory speakers could reach little agreement on how IP-enabled services should be regulated, but the telco and cable executives on the panel wouldn’t rule out that their industries might want to “port-block” IP services someday.

Rick Cimerman, Director of Telecom Policy at the National Cable and Telecommunications Association, said that he could foresee cable operators wanting to block services from riding over their broadband networks if those services “imposed an additional cost” on the networks.

“We end up investing a lot behind the [DSL] connection and a lot of that investment goes to enable BitTorrent or peer to peer file sharing. Someday we might get to the point where we want to block a port,” Jonathan Banks, BellSouth Vice President of Federal, Executive and Regulatory Affairs said.

The prospect that Voip networks could be blocked from cable or telco broadband systems worries Pulver.com’s General Counsel Jonathan Askin. “What we’ve seen is a remarkable encroachment by the regulatory authorities on IP services. On the flip side, we’ve seen the removal of access regulations on carriers that might serve as gatekeepers.”

Posted by Cynthia Brumfield on October 25, 2005 06:27 PM to IP Democracy
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

vicmatson wrote:

Voip has been getting a free ride in not paying for the data transport(broadband), but there has to be a middle ground.


How so?

I pay $50 a month to access the Internet, and included in that fee is the amount that my ISP is paying one of the upstream major routing companies for bandwidth out on the Internet itself. Those major companies, such as UUNET, etc, collect fees from ISP's and maintain the communication lines and routers.

In addition, Vonage picks up the signal off the Internet using a paid-for connection, routes in on their internal servers, and gateways it to a local POTS line for POTS calls (both their connection to/bandwidth on the Internet and the POTS access points cost money).

So how, exactly, is my using my paid-for bandwidth for Voip as opposed to, say, watching streaming video, downloading Linux, or surfing my.yahoo.com, a "free ride"?
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ChrisFix wrote:

Rick Cimerman, Director of Telecom Policy at the National Cable and Telecommunications Association, said that he could foresee cable operators wanting to block services from riding over their broadband networks if those services “imposed an additional cost” on the networks.


That's certainly perfectly fair and reasonable.

Many ISP's put a monthly cap on bandwidth, or low caps on transfer (ie. Suscom's 256K upload cap) to prevent excessive use of bandwidth. I'm not insensitive to the fact that bandwidth costs money, and an overly "abusive" user can cost far more than they pay in bandwidth costs.

But that doesn't mean that the correct or best answer is to block TYPES of service. Just put reasonable caps on the AMOUNTS of service that users use. Overuse is what cuts into profits, not types of use.

Of course, it's also fair to point out that many pay extra for high-bandwidth accounts today, and that it's not the users who initiated the "flat rate" charges to maximize profits...
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vicmatson
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

NateHoy wrote:
vicmatson wrote:

Voip has been getting a free ride in not paying for the data transport(broadband), but there has to be a middle ground.


How so?

I pay $50 a month to access the Internet, and included in that fee is the amount that my ISP is paying one of the upstream major routing companies for bandwidth out on the Internet itself. Those major companies, such as UUNET, etc, collect fees from ISP's and maintain the communication lines and routers.

In addition, Vonage picks up the signal off the Internet using a paid-for connection, routes in on their internal servers, and gateways it to a local POTS line for POTS calls (both their connection to/bandwidth on the Internet and the POTS access points cost money).

So how, exactly, is my using my paid-for bandwidth for Voip as opposed to, say, watching streaming video, downloading Linux, or surfing my.yahoo.com, a "free ride"?

Not an argument here, but they could argue that the VoIP's reliance for QoS requires a demand on resources from their network not normally needed to “watching streaming video, downloading Linux, or surfing my.yahoo.com “.

I know you say “what?”, but it is common for businesses to charge more for premium goods or services.
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

vicmatson wrote:

I know you say “what?”, but it is common for businesses to charge more for premium goods or services.


Absolutely. SusCom has four bandwidth levels (256K, 3M, 5M, and 7M). Adelphia charged for excessive bandwidth use, and had a "premium" account for an extra $15/mo that allowed 5MB down and 512K up with no metering.

QoS is controlled at the local level, and prioritizes packets sent to my ISP. My request for faster packets doesn't get forwarded to my ISP, I just use QoS to "slow down" the rest of my stuff to accommodate the stuff that I want to run faster.
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vicmatson
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

You know the sad part of all this is that if I'm forced to use Comcast or Verizon for Voip some of the features that I get with Vonage they don't have or even “get”. For me it's about features not weather it's Voip or Pots.
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ChrisFix
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

vicmatson wrote:

Not an argument here, but they could argue that the VoIP's reliance for QoS requires a demand on resources from their network not normally needed to “watching streaming video, downloading Linux, or surfing my.yahoo.com “.


Your ISP (and mine) don't give a rat's a** about QoS for Voip calls or any other traffic you send their way. It is packet traffic that has zero network prioritzation. Like surfing this site, it is Best Effort quality, which just so happens is usually just fine for most things we use it for, including voice. The "you aren't paying me for my service" argument from the ISP just doesn't fly. If it did, then they should stop advertising the amount of bandwidth they are SELLING us if they don't plan on providing it.
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

vicmatson wrote:

I know you say “what?”, but it is common for businesses to charge more for premium goods or services.


Absolutely. SusCom has four bandwidth levels (256K, 3M, 5M, and 7M). Adelphia charged for excessive bandwidth use, and had a "premium" account for an extra $15/mo that allowed 5MB down and 512K up with no metering.

QoS is controlled at the local level, and prioritizes packets sent to my ISP. My request for faster packets doesn't get forwarded to my ISP, I just use QoS to "slow down" the rest of my stuff to accommodate the stuff that I want to run faster.
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ChrisFix
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Posts: 282
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

http://twcnc.com/road_runner/info/fast.cfm

Road Runner Speeds Increase!
Our core Road Runner service NOW offering up to 5Mbps downstream and 384 Kbps upstream speeds is over 100 times faster than traditional dial-up connections and triple the speed of DSL's Standard package over its high-speed network*. The infrastructure and technology are designed to bring content as close to the consumer as possible, through sophisticated caching servers located at the Regional Data Center or cable headend. This technology provides access to a wide variety of multimedia content without the need to go into the heavily trafficked Internet space.
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