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You can recollect
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The devices are
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Hi these are most
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robertplattbell
Vonage Forum Senior
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Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, and then again, anything is possible.

We also have phone service outages with traditional POTS landlines.

Sometimes (gasp!) I dial and get a recording saying "all circuits are busy". Say it ain't so Ma Bell!

And lets not even talk about cellular.

I used to do work for Bell Atlantic. One of their engineers explained to me that with cell service, they have a "threshold of pain" theory. Basically, cell customers expect a certain amount of dropped calls, static, and other problems. Since they expect this, there is little point in installing additional cell towers and improving the service much. Why bother? The customers will tolerate the present level of "pain" and fairly hefty prices.

Compared to cell service, the threshold on Vonage seems to be a LOT lower. Will there ever be problems? Sure. But good old Ma Bell has plenty of those, too.

So long as the service levels are comparable, I don't see this is an issue.

And with regard to "what ifs" about hijacked phone numbers or intecepted phone calls, that sounds to me like some shills from CWA posting, frankly. Non-issues being blown all out of proportion.

If someone is going to drop Vonage because maybe someday possibly there might be a problem, I'd be willing to bet Vonage is just as happy to see that customer go away. They are not worth the $24.99 a month aggravation.

If you can run a business where you cull out all the problem customers, time-wasters, whiners, etc., you can really lower prices and boost your bottom line.

That has been my personal business plan. 5% of clients cause 95% of the problems and waste 95% of your time. Firing a client often is the best solution. You can spend more time on the remaining clients and offer better (and cheaper) service.

To folks raised on "the customer is always right" this sounds like an ananthema. To heck with them!

Sounds like a good plan to me. All you whiners, just go away.

I'll stick with the Vonage, thanks. Had my fill of telcos.
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jdr30
Vonage Forum Master
Vonage Forum Master


Joined: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

StevenJr wrote:
Yes, it is very possible. I had some problems last night and they last about 10 minutes. I ordered a feature on Vonage and wanted to check the status this morning and someone called an international number that lasted for minutes. I was charged 24 cents for the call and 1 cent for tax. I called billing and he saw that.
I told the billing rep. that I don't call international numbers. He looked up the call and it was to 765-374-xxxx and I told him, that's funny. That's not an international number and he said yes it was. I asked him how could that be because that is my own number. He took the charge off and I called the cancellation dept.
I spoke with Danelle and she said she had a call before me with someone saying the samething. She said I am not even going to try to keep you because that is problem and could continue. The billing rep and cancellation rep. said that is an issue they are working on.
Just a heads up, just it is possible. If Vonage will implete some type of firewall or security messure, I "WILL" return but not until then.



Thats just a bug in the billing system and not someone hacking you phone. Ive been in tech support for about a year and only seen this once and it was a bug in the billing. No one hacked your number. I work here and I dont even have the ability to hack your phone.
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StevenJr
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Joined: Apr 20, 2005
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Then explain to me why when Vonage charged for the international charge that same time my hard drive was wiped out? You want questomers and do not want to cough up a problem. Ha ha ha Liar
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robertplattbell
Vonage Forum Senior
Vonage Forum Senior


Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The incoherence and bad spelling in your post calls into question the entire validity of the whole post.

I suspect that you are not a Vonage customer but rather a disgruntled union member watching his cushy job go bye-bye, which it should have done a long time ago.

(Probably posting here in response to instructions from your union handlers. I used to be a Teamster, so I know how disinformation campaigns work).

I hear Wal-Mart is hiring greeters.

Or do you want fries with that?

What comes around goes around....

If you are so happy with Ma Bell, then go to their forum (do they even have one) and post messages there.

Good Luck.
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conturaX
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Joined: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Greensboro, NC

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I am a CWA member, have & love Vonage, and work for one of the regional bells. It'd be nice to see that such tech saavy people as those who frequent here not stoop to the level of the ignorants who generalize and catagorize people who are associated with a certain union. As in any organization, there are those who are not good workers, but for you guys to bash all of us as a whole is somewhat ignorant IMHO. I take great pride in what I do (CO Tech) and the work I perform. I frequent customer POP sites and have the utmost respect for their property while I am there. All I ask is to step back and think how it sounds when someone negatively labels someone just because they are affiliated with an organization that you don't particularly care for. Doesn't seem too professional to me...

Sorry for the rant, just had to add my 2 cents.
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robertplattbell
Vonage Forum Senior
Vonage Forum Senior


Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Unions suck, period.

I say this having worked in UAW, metalworkers, and Teamsters shops for many, many years.

Where are those shops now? Bulldozed into the ground. Literally.

Overpaid employees, restrictive work rules, sloppy work and outright sabatoge killed off perfectly good companies and closed down productive plants.

And in every instance, the union guys said "it will never happen here". But it did. When you are making 4 or 5 times the going wage for unskilled labor in your market, something isn't right.

Now it is your turn. Americans have been looking for an alternative to the horrible service of the telcos for nearly a century. We've had it up to here with Ma Bell.

Or do you really think the "service" you provide is top notch?

As a consumer, I'd have to disagree, vehemently.

Reality check, my friend!

Like I said, Wal-Mart is hiring. The wages there are a better indicia of the REAL worth of your "services".

Sweet!
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GardRailz
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Joined: Jan 30, 2005
Posts: 73
Location: WV

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

As far as hijacking phone conversations go, I know of no situations where this has happened yet. In the future, it may become more common, but then again, those individuals would have to either compromise your home network, OR compromise the network of your provider to play man in the middle. It's actually easier for someone to just capture the data than it would be to disrupt and take over your Voip connection in the middle. But then again, they would have to compramise your network, or an upstream provider's network at the right location.

Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it wont. Hell you could have someone brown boxing your standard analog system simply by connecting a long cable to your phone box and making calls that way.

To protect yourself is the same way you would when monitoring your credit report... Check it out from time to time and be aware that as technology progresses, the criminal mind progresses as well.

Case in point, why do you think we have massive links to the internet now? In most cases it's due to pornography and piracy.
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robertplattbell
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Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

So this "issue" is really a red herring, isn't it?

As I recall, the thread was started by a fellow who wanted to dump Vonage service because it was not "secure". Sounds like an odd reason to go back to telco (and pay 2-3 times as much) - that maybe, possibly, someday, someone *might* intecept one of your calls.

Sounds more like a carefully orchestrated disinformation campaign.

So, it might be technically feasible to intercept an internet phone call, provided you can snatch all the packets for the call at the right place at the right time. So far, it has not been done (outside of any government agency, I'm sure the boys in McLean have already done it).

So why is this being raised as a serious "issue"? As noted, plain old telephone service is far easier to "hack" with a pair of alligator clips.

It is disinformation, plain and simple. It sounds a LOT like the stories the UAW used to spread about Japanese cars back in the 1970's and 1980's when I worked at GM. If you can't compete on price/value, then spread rumors. That has worked out well for GM and the UAW, as you can see.....

I think the telcos are scared to death, and the telco unions (CWA) are petrified. Like many other unions, they presumed thier jobs would never go away, as they had no competition, and their employers had a government mandated monopoly.

And everyone needs phone service, right?

So high school dropouts could command salaries commensurate with that of a Doctor, and do slipshod work and never worry about getting fired. And of course, get incredible health care benefits, and a cushy retirement. The rest of us have to work for a living.

Funny thing, though. As consumers, Americans tend not to like poorly made products and bad service - not when there is an alternative. And now there is.

Customer service (dialup) at Vonage is not all that great - about commensurate with the telcos. But since it is at least 1/2 the cost of copper, it is quite a bargain. And the basic service itself seems to be comparable to what the Ma Bells have to offer. A dialtone is a dialtone.

Granted, you still have to deal with the cable company. Funny thing, though. Even though historically the cable companies have had horrible reputations for bad service, I'm finding that the local provider (Cox) is much more responsive than the local telco (Verizon). If you call their service number (Cox) you talk to a person almost right away. Much better DTMF menu as well!

I can say the same for Comcast in Florida (versus Bell South). I'd rather deal with the independent contractor "cable guy" than the sullen angry union phone tech. Get'er done!

Funny how that works. Good service and accountability seem to go hand in hand.

Go ahead and keep spreading the disinformation about Voip. Frankly, resorting to things like "security" smacks of desperation to me. I guess you can't argue the basic price/service/value thing, so you have to grasp at straws.

Like I said, if this "security" thing is such a big deal, go back to Momma Bell, and stop whining on the Vonage site. I think the rest of us like this service.

Nice thing about that, too. If you don't like Vonage, you can go elsewhere. Choices!!

Even if Voip is NOT for you, its very existance will force the telcos (and the unions) to get their act together. As the rate of telco disconnects continues to rise, something will have to give.

Sweet!
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GardRailz
Full Forum Member
Full Forum Member


Joined: Jan 30, 2005
Posts: 73
Location: WV

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Mr robertplattbell, or at least I presume you're a Mr.

Personally, I could give .02 about your opinions about the validity of my posts. Clearly the posts you've made have been to undermine technical data posted by any individual worth their salt. Let the masses decide what they feel is accurate. Anyone can validate any statement made in my posts; I provide documentation to back my statements up.

You are right on a few points:

* To obtain the full packet stream, one must either obtain access to one of the end points (as my demonstration proved), OR obtain access to a provider's network and tap their uplink(s).

* It is easier for the general population to 'hack' their neighbors phone service and make calls using their land lines by connecting alligator clips to the posts in their phone box.

* Actual man in the middle attacks on Voice over IP systems haven't been documented all that well. I personally know of none, however I know of many situations where calls have been intercepted and monitored.

You make statements that make it sound like Voip is secure enough, it is for mindless dribble. The special cases I'm concerned with is the discussion of privacy act information, such as medical records, credit card, and social security numbers. The technology is there to scan through data sources and recognize key words. Try calling a company that has an automated attendant that can recognize when you say one, two, three. Or how about when you call sprint, and the AA asks you to ask it a question...

Just keep in mind that the points your driving home may be applicable for home users that accept or ignore the risks, but they may not apply to businesses and security minded individuals that I'm speaking to.

Good day to you Sir.
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robertplattbell
Vonage Forum Senior
Vonage Forum Senior


Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry, but no sale!

You come on to this site and whine because some customer service guy in INDIA can't answer your questions about encrypting Voip which you think is necessary because "maybe" someone might tap into your call.

But you admit that it hasn't been done yet, would likely be hard to do, and that in order to do it, you'd have to tap at one end of the connection or the other, and know where and when to tap.

It is a total red herring.

Go back to your precious telco, if this is such a big "issue" to you.

I think it is a total waste of bandwidth, myself.

I think it really is just mindless Vonage-bashing, and pretty desperate at that.
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