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ToddlerTN
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

matth wrote:
There is no legislation saying Voip providers even HAVE to offer 911. Vonage didn't direct them to the wrong PSAP... they just didn't offer service. There is NO legislation stating they need to offer it...

I know some of you guys are going to have a knee-jerk reaction to this, but what matth says is also part of the problem, which goes back to FCC regulation and the establishment of a federalized e911 system that guarantees open access to Voip or any other telephony provider.

How it will be done isn't worth debating, but it will be done. And let me close with the disclaimer that establishing a modernized, national 911 system does not require regulating the Voip industry. Although to some degree that will probably happen also...but that's a topic for another thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Ridicilous Reply with quote Back to top

SaltAquatics wrote:
kenn10 wrote:
was thinking more along the lines that we're a nation of Democrats, ACLU members and attorneys. To them nothing is an individual's fault.


So now this a political issue? I thought this board frowned upon the topic of politics related to the US Government. I mean it isn't directly Vonage related is it? Democrats I mean..... Rolling Eyes And furthermore, the above statement is a political opinion.

It's not exactly a political debate, is it? I mean pointing out that Democrats, the ACLU and related special interest groups are typically the ones out there making everything big business's or the government's fault seems like a legitimate point in this particular topic. I don't see why that's even an issue...in fact, you're the only person who even responded to it, and you didn't even dispute the assertion, you just said it shouldn't be whispered here.

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ToddlerTN
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

LuisPR wrote:
To form an opinion, I decided I needed to assess where within the sign-up procedure the 911 issue is first presented to customers. So to do so, I went through part of the Vonage sign-up process.

The first screen (also the Vonage homepage) has several icons that when clicked, lead to specific pages about the offer.

The second screen has information about the offer you clicked on. Toward the bottom of the page, a seven-item Q&A appears. The sixth question reads:

"Does Vonage offer a 911 Dialing emergency type of dialing service?
"Yes. Click here to learn more."

I personally would never read that without clicking "here" to learn more. But some very intelligent people here in these forums have stated that 911 isn't important to them (saying they have cell phones for that, or some have even said they never anticipate needing to call).

I work in IT, and I install software all the time without reading every single word of the license agreement--I simply don't have the time. Microsoft, Adobe, Symantec...those companies have a reputation, and I don't presume that they are slipping spyware into their products or otherwise trying to trick me in the EULA.

To some degree, I think that also applies here. The first piece of 911-related information a prospective customer is presented with is that Q&A item. Q: "Does Vonage offer a 911 Dialing emergency type of dialing service?" A: "Yes. Click here to learn more."

You have to admit that "yes" with a period is a pretty specific answer. And "click here to learn more" is an invitation to learn more if you are interested. That's obviously not a warning, and it's not even a recommendation to learn more. Rather, Vonage provides a reassuring answer to a reasonable question. In other words, "Yes, we offer a 911 emergency type of service, and if that's good enough for you, skip to the next question."

Not to mention signing up on the phone. That's how I joined Vonage, and never once did the CSR mention 911 to me at all. Now I had already made myself aware of the limitations, but I was also frustrated by the lack of more specifics concerning exactly where my call would get routed. Three calls to Vonage and they couldn't tell me where my call would go, so ordering Vonage and testing it myself was the final step in my research. Nevertheless, the CSR never mentioned 911 when I called to sign up, and obviously a user who signs up over the phone will never be presented with even the basic "click here if you're interested" invitation to learn more.

So in that light, with Vonage on their way to having nearly 1,000,000 customers now, there will naturally be quite a few new users who find themselves surprised by the limitations of 911. Vonage could do better, and it seems reasonable to expect better concerning something as critical as emergency services and 911.

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SaltAquatics
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Ridicilous Reply with quote Back to top

ToddlerTN wrote:
SaltAquatics wrote:
kenn10 wrote:
was thinking more along the lines that we're a nation of Democrats, ACLU members and attorneys. To them nothing is an individual's fault.


So now this a political issue? I thought this board frowned upon the topic of politics related to the US Government. I mean it isn't directly Vonage related is it? Democrats I mean..... Rolling Eyes And furthermore, the above statement is a political opinion.

It's not exactly a political debate, is it? I mean pointing out that Democrats, the ACLU and related special interest groups are typically the ones out there making everything big business's or the government's fault seems like a legitimate point in this particular topic. I don't see why that's even an issue...in fact, you're the only person who even responded to it, and you didn't even dispute the assertion, you just said it shouldn't be whispered here.


Man you're a quick one. Very Happy No, but as a Democrat, no I don't dispute that, as a business owner also, I take every safe gaurd to make sure my business is dummy proof, along with covering my bases to make sure I don't get sued. Although I don't believe that the lawsuit should stand, the sad truth is that it has the potential to go somewhere.

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alaw168
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ToddlerTN wrote:
The first piece of 911-related information a prospective customer is presented with is that Q&A item. Q: "Does Vonage offer a 911 Dialing emergency type of dialing service?" A: "Yes. Click here to learn more."

You have to admit that "yes" with a period is a pretty specific answer. And "click here to learn more" is an invitation to learn more if you are interested. That's obviously not a warning, and it's not even a recommendation to learn more. Rather, Vonage provides a reassuring answer to a reasonable question. In other words, "Yes, we offer a 911 emergency type of service, and if that's good enough for you, skip to the next question."

Not to mention signing up on the phone. That's how I joined Vonage, and never once did the CSR mention 911 to me at all. Now I had already made myself aware of the limitations, but I was also frustrated by the lack of more specifics concerning exactly where my call would get routed. Three calls to Vonage and they couldn't tell me where my call would go, so ordering Vonage and testing it myself was the final step in my research. Nevertheless, the CSR never mentioned 911 when I called to sign up, and obviously a user who signs up over the phone will never be presented with even the basic "click here if you're interested" invitation to learn more.

So in that light, with Vonage on their way to having nearly 1,000,000 customers now, there will naturally be quite a few new users who find themselves surprised by the limitations of 911. Vonage could do better, and it seems reasonable to expect better concerning something as critical as emergency services and 911.


I agree. While the whole incident is tragic, I do not think you can blame it on "stupidity" of the victim. I feel Vonage does share some of the responsibility. Particularly, it is Vonage's decision to make their 911 service activation totally optional. They could have make it a mandatory step during sign-up, while providing an option to opt out (to satisfy those who absolutely think 911 service is not needed). They can even default your billing address but allow you to update it -- just how many customers who are ignorant enough to not sign up for 911 but knowledgeable enough to pack their TAs on their trips is anyone's guess. I do not know the reasoning behind Vonage's decision to make this optional instead of mandatory. If it's financial related, then I pity them.

You can argue all day long about how Vonage is a provider of information service and not phone service, but such distinction is not going to hold up in front of jurors. The simple fact is, Vonage is heavily advertising itself as a phone company and to the mass market, "phone company" means a provider of "phone service", which by common sense includes 911 service.
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Randalllind
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

If you sign up for 911 and Vonage fails to connect you then they should be sued.

E-911 or not they ask people to sign up for 911 under account information so if you did and Vonage doesn't connect you then that is lieing to customers.

it doesn't say signup for 911 and we may connect you.

You do not need to test 911 dialing. If you have received an email confirmation from Vonage stating that your 911 dialing has been activated, then 911 dialing will work should you ever need it. If you do choose to test 911 Dialing, please test it only one time. When you call, you must inform the emergency response personnel that it is not an emergency and that you are testing your alternative emergency service to make sure it's working. If they ask why you are testing the system, explain that you are using an Internet phone service that operates differently than the traditional phone company. If the PSAP operator tells you to dial another number, please inform Vonage Customer Care at 1-VONAGE-HELP (1-866-243-4357) or 1-732-650-6699.

When I dial 911 I get the 911 non-emergency number which doesn't have my name, number or address so the guy said if I am having an heart attack or can't speak I will die before they get to me.

Also calling on a non-emergency number means I am last in line for help according to the guy that picked up 911 when I called.

Vonage 911 is a joke. Vonage lies when they say they care about customers they should get they butt in gear and get E-911 up and working.

The CEO doesn't want to set up E-911 because it will take away from profits if I understand his 5 points. Vonage will only set up E-911 when force by law.
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vonagebest
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:51 am    Post subject: Ag Reply with quote Back to top

Attorney General

Playing pure politics like usual.

What do you expect from a politician. Wake up people!

If you buy into this you must have loved Fahrenheit 911 too.

Politicians will do anything to justify they are doing something at work.

Why don't they help Terri in Florida? Im sorry that would actual require work.
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SaltAquatics
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Actually I loved Fahrenheit 9/11. I thought it was great. Shows some of our president's best work. Eek

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ToddlerTN
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SaltAquatics wrote:
Actually I loved Fahrenheit 9/11.

LOL, why does that not surprise me?

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ToddlerTN
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Ag Reply with quote Back to top

vonagebest wrote:
Attorney General

Playing pure politics like usual.

What do you expect from a politician. Wake up people!

If you buy into this you must have loved Fahrenheit 911 too.

Politicians will do anything to justify they are doing something at work.

Why don't they help Terri in Florida? Im sorry that would actual require work.

I'm not sure if you really expected an answer to your question, but you're about to get one.

You can blame judicial tyrrany for this situation. On Wednesday, the probate judge presiding over Terri's case (Judge George Greer) issued an order directing "each and every and singular Sheriff of the state of Florida" to block Gov. Bush from entering the hospice. However, under Florida law, a judge's order is automatically stayed whenever a public agency appeals it. So Thursday morning, an appeal was entered, and Bush ordered state troopers to go get Terri and notified an area hospital that they would be bringing her in shortly.

Enroute to the hospice, the state troopers notified local police that they were coming to get Terri, and local police responded that if they tried to enter the hospice, there would be a standoff. The local police were not aware of the law allowing the judge's order to be suspended and were acting under Judge Greer's order. The state troopers stopped a few miles from the hospice as they negotiated for over an hour. During that time, Judge Greer was notified of the action and he immediately issued a ruling to nullify the stay of his own order, once again doing an end-run around the regular appeals process and the law.

Go get the book "Men in Black" by Mark Levin...it's currently #3 on the NYT nonfiction list, so it should be easy to find.

The legistative and executive branches have spoken on Terri's case, and they've both been consistently overridden and ignored by the courts. If this is a government "of the people, by the people, for the people" then what room does that leave for democracy?

These judges aren't politicians, they aren't elected and they don't answer to the will of the people. The role of the judiciary was never to make "decisions" but rather to interpret and apply the law. In this case, there are several laws already on the books, both in Florida and the one passed last weekend by Congress, which have been completely ignored by the courts in Terri's case. Why do the courts have the power to declare that their orders supercede the laws as expressed by the only elected representatives of the people?

If the three branches of government are "seperate but equal" then why does the will of the judiciary trump the will of the other two branches of government? Because over the last 50 years, we've become accustomed to the notion that judges have the final word, and we've handed the judiciary branch the reins to overturn the will of the people and impose their own morality on society, and by so doing to control us all.

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