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seattlezoid
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Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:31 am    Post subject: VOIP may soon be crippled by Cable and Telcos Reply with quote Back to top

Here is an excerpt from Robert X. Cringeley's web site:
The full article can be found here http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050303.html

"Here's how they plan to cripple the Vonages and Skype's, according to friends of mine who have spent 20+ years in engineering positions at telephone companies, cable companies and internet service providers. As the phone and cable companies begin offering their own Voip services in real volume, they plan to "tag" their own Voip packets so that at least within their own networks, their Voip service will have COS (Class of Service) assignments with their routers, switches, etc. They also plan on implementing distinct Virtual Local Area Networks (VLANs) for the tagged packets.

Tagged packets get both less restrictive rules for passage and a private highway lane to drive on.

The net effect is that any packet that isn't tagged will only get "best effort" service, which means whatever is left.

"Best effort," as defined by IETF RFC 791, makes almost no guarantees. The packet may arrive damaged, it may be out of order (compared to other packets sent between the same hosts), it may be duplicated, or it may be dropped entirely. And that was in the good old days.

Now imagine "best effort" transport on a backbone that is already clogged with tagged traffic that gets preferential treatment. Where previously all packets got "best effort," in this new system some packets get better than best effort, which means the remaining packets will effectively get worse than best effort.

The telco and cable guys know enough about their networks that they can throttle their network capacities up and down so that "best effort" service is going to be pretty awful. But have the magic tags on your packets and you'll have decent service."

I hope this does not happen, only time will tell

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veep
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

One of the telcos or cable co's will buy Vonage before too long, as to jump start its presence in Voip Market...

So this will probably not be a worry with Vonage customers.

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ToddlerTN
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Plus, all the guys here like DentalRep who are always saying, "VoIP isn't perfect, I'm more than happy with something that works 90% of the time for $24.95" shouldn't be complaining when it happens, right? I don't see what business the government would have getting involved in forcing an ISP to jump through hoops to give an unregulated service's data packets top priority on their network. What's next, Yahoo Messenger?

I'm hoping to move over to Comcast as soon as it's available here. Yeah it costs a little more, and aside from portability, you get a little more, too.

I guess if you want $24.95 Voip, then stick with Vonage and tell your packets to get in line behind mine.

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mbhn5204
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

It is the writers purpose to upset the reader. There have been many such articles. Comcast offers digital phone service through the cable and hooked into to PSTN interconnection box. It is an excellent service, but offers nothing new that the PSTN's offer.

These companies are on the decline, and they know it. They are losing Telco market share to Voip service residential and IP service in the business place.

Voip is here to stay and they will do anything, say anything to stay in business. Pay no attention to the lies and misleading info propagated by them. They're dinosaurs, they are drowning and looking for that last gasp before going down forever.

Furthermore, nationally, we have run out of telephone numbers. The antiquated PSTN system was designed over one hundred years ago. It was never anticipated that so many telephones would one day be in use. The cost to overhaul every Frame, every relay panel, every telephone, in fact the entire system would be too cost prohibited to attempt. The entire PSTN system has reached the end of it's usefulness. And they know it.

Wireless phone are a type of Voip. This is why all PSTN's have opened up a wireless branch. They are computer operated and computers can be reprogrammed to expand. Likewise Voip. Need a few extra numbers in the dialing sequence? No sweat, is tomorrow ok?

So, pay no attention to the propagandists. They would like for people less smarter than we to reject Voip and have the last possible buck squeezed out of them. That is the nature of business. In the end, all will have to go to Voip or wireless phones. I've found that Voip is cheaper in cost, has more features, and no long distance service is required.

Last but not least, the FCC will ensure fairness on the internet. Packet tagging is a nice threat, but it is illegal. If I pay for use on the internet, I will be guaranteed that my packets wil have just as much priority as those of my ISP. If such a scheme takes place. Then it will open a new market for broadband service that does not acknowledge tagging. In business, one event causes another. In this case, a broadband ISP with servers that do not play the tagging game. Thus the taggers lose business share to the non-taggers. It all works out in the end.

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rolands
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Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

veep wrote:
One of the telcos or cable co's will buy Vonage before too long, as to jump start its presence in Voip Market...

So this will probably not be a worry with Vonage customers.


It won't be a worry for the Vonage customers who are also the customers of the ISP that is the "purchaser of Vonage".

For everyone else, if they continue using Vonage, they will be considered as using a competitor's Voip service (if their own ISP offers VoIP).

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Roland
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ToddlerTN
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

mbhn5204 wrote:
Last but not least, the FCC will ensure fairness on the internet. Packet tagging is a nice threat, but it is illegal. If I pay for use on the internet, I will be guaranteed that my packets wil have just as much priority as those of my ISP. If such a scheme takes place. Then it will open a new market for broadband service that does not acknowledge tagging. In business, one event causes another. In this case, a broadband ISP with servers that do not play the tagging game. Thus the taggers lose business share to the non-taggers. It all works out in the end.

But you're way off-base about what's actually happening. If you read the original story, the Internet service is a seperate service from the Voip service, and both services have their own independent data streams on completely seperate networks. Downstream, both services do end up travelling together once they're routed out to the Internet, and that's where the prioritization comes into play. At that point, ALL "cable modem" traffic is at a lower priority than the ISP's Voip traffic, which only makes a difference if router buffers or the pipe is full.

So the cable company isn't engaged in some sinister scheme to screw with third-party Voip services. The cable company is simply making an effort to ensure that their voice service is as reliable as it can be, at the POSSIBLE, occasional expense of their Internet service.

Voice is much more sensitive to latency issues than data is, so it absolutely makes sense that a provider would configure their network that way, and if customers expect a Vonage box plugged into their router and piggy-backing on their cable modem can guarantee them an identical quality of service in that scenario, they're not being realistic.

And ultimately you've got other options, so either decide you're happy with what you get for $24.95 or start shopping the alternatives.

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kenn10
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ToddlerTN wrote:
[And ultimately you've got other options, so either decide you're happy with what you get for $24.95 or start shopping the alternatives.


Toddler, you're right on target. The cable companies won't dare screw things up too much or all the high speed customers will scream about slow downs (which will also hurt VOIP).

Two things will come into a balance: 1) The quality of Voip and 2) the price of Voip. If the cable company Voip is the only one that is great and they keep the price at $29 and up, people will ditch and keep a POTS line. AT&T is beginning to find this out already. Even Comcast is rumored to be debuting their Voip for $39.99.

So demand will drive the market place. All of us have a front-row seat to see where it will all go.

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ToddlerTN
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Joined: Feb 12, 2005
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Location: Nashville, TN

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I've been told Comcast's pricing (at least here) will be $39.95 for customers who also carry either cable TV or Internet from Comcast, and $54.95 for others.

The cool thing is, if all you want is Voip from Comcast, you can get it without even needing broadband service. For people who got broadband just for Voip, that makes $54.95 look really nice.

On the other hand, bundling services is going to be a big seller. BellSouth has tried to get in on that by working deals with DirecTV to bundle your bills, and talk about a forced relationship. Soon Comcast is going to be the single link between your home and the outside world.

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PoppaJohn
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:14 am    Post subject: Oh yeah, we got problems.... Reply with quote Back to top

Rather than double post, I refer you all to this thread: http://www.vonage-forum.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=25067#25067

Perhaps some might also provide links to similar threads where we can all work on some sort of common solution.

By remaining silent, we enable and condone other ISPs screwing Voip.

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