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jpd
Vonage Forum Junior
Vonage Forum Junior


Joined: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Bangkok, Thailand

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:18 am    Post subject: Dual WAN Router and Vonage Reply with quote Back to top

I have been experiencing high packet loss and latency as well as high packet discards lately. I have been entertaining the idea of having two broadband connections and wondered if anyone has experience with Dual WAN routers or advice on a particular model.

My potential plan:

Use my existing ADSL service
Add a second ADSL provider on second phone line
Use Dual WAN router with my Moto VT1005v

I see there are many features on these Dual WAN routers I would likely not use but I guess the main thing is loadbalancing up and down and failover. This gets me up in the $700 area (kind of spendy for me) though from what I read.

Anyone have comments or advise? There seem to lots of sharp Voip and networking folks in here... I'd appreciate the help.
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limmerguy
Vonage Forum Associate
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Joined: Feb 10, 2005
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

a dual wan router and connection won't solve your packet loss and latency problems. When using a dual wan router, you need to have something called "port binding" enabled for each of your Vonage adapters. Voip doesn't work on dual wan routers without it. This setting basically restricts all traffic into and out of the ATA onto one WAN connection (unless the WAN fails, then it resorts to the other). Dual WAN is great for websurfing, but doesn't work like it should with Voip.

We have an Xincom XC-DPG503 at our office with 4 Linksys ATAs and 2 DSL connections.

Now for that packet loss... Is your MTA in front of your network? what is your latency? ISP?
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jpd
Vonage Forum Junior
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Joined: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Bangkok, Thailand

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Packet Loss/discards = very choppy voic back from other end? Reply with quote Back to top

limmerguy wrote:


We have an Xincom XC-DPG503 at our office with 4 Linksys ATAs and 2 DSL connections.

Now for that packet loss... Is your MTA in front of your network? what is your latency? ISP?


limmerguy,

Thanks for the info. Yes the Moto box is ahead of my network.
(ADSL Modem Router Switch - Moto box - Switch - PCs on network)
The www.TestYourVoIP.com results when things are bad:

MOS Analysis FROM Boston To You

Media Quality
MOS 1.0 / 5.0 (Best with G.711 is 4.4)

Degradation Sources
Codec 0.58 14.4%
Latency 1.11 27.8%
Packet Discards 1.39 34.9%
Packet Loss 0.91 22.8%

Codec G.711 (PCM at 64kbps, 20ms RTP payload, 80kbps IP BW)
Round-Trip Latency 1050 ms
Packet Discards 15.1%
Packet Loss 9.9%
Loss Periods
Min: 20 ms
Avg: 60 ms
Max: 620 ms
Burst Loss

Jitter
Min: 4 ms
Avg: 74 ms
Max: 1371 ms

Signaling Quality
Post-Pickup Delay 864 ms
Call Setup Time 720 ms
Media Delay 896 ms

Then I just now had the following details after a great quality call:

Media Quality MOS 3.9 / 5.0
(Best with G.711 is 4.4)

Degradation Sources
Codec 0.57 51.6%
Latency 0.54 48.4%
Packet Discards 0.00 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.00 0.0%

Codec G.711 (PCM at 64kbps,
20ms RTP payload,
80kbps IP BW)
Round-Trip
Latency 601 ms
Packet Discards 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.0%
Loss Periods Min: 0 ms
Avg: 0 ms
Max: 0 ms
No Loss

Jitter Min: 4 ms
Avg: 20 ms
Max: 339 ms

Signaling Quality Post-Pickup Delay 338 ms

I seems like an ISP issue to me (I use TRUE ADSL 2.5Mb dn/512 kBps up). The thoughts on using the dual WAN thingie are in hopes of getting a better quality broadband connection from a second provider and having the choice to manually switch over and/or loadshare with a Dual WAN router.

I noticed the XC-DPG503 does not have inbound load balancing. The XC-DPG602 does. Do you think this would help with the packet discard/loss issues or bandwidth only?

Thanks again for your advice. BTW my packetization is set to 10 via Vonage help desk advice last week.
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ToddlerTN
Vonage Forum Evangelist
Vonage Forum Evangelist


Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Nashville, TN

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

jpd,

limmerguy hit it right on the head. Your approach would certainly be fun if you've got deep pockets, but that's an expensive fix for something that your ISP should be responsible for. And as far as the Voip traffic is concerned, all you're doing in that scenario is basically changing ISPs. As limmerguy pointed out, you've got to bind your Voip traffic to one connection or the other, not both. So the real answer lies in figuring out what's up with your service, or ditching your ISP for someone with more stable performance.

Your results are below the norm for ADSL. There are plenty of people here getting good results with your bandwidth or less. Cable is a bigger pipe, but typically not quite as stable...however, in your case, cable is much more stable than what you're getting.

If it helps, here's what I get over Comcast cable in Nashville (4/384):

MOS Analysis FROM Boston To You

Media Quality MOS 4.4 / 5.0
(Best with G.711 is 4.4)

Degradation Sources
Codec 0.58 100.0%
Latency 0.00 0.0%
Packet Discards 0.00 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.00 0.0%

Codec G.711 (PCM at 64kbps, 20ms RTP payload, 80kbps IP BW)
Round-Trip Latency 130 ms
Packet Discards 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.0%
Loss Periods Min: 0 ms
Avg: 0 ms
Max: 0 ms
No Loss

Jitter Min: 4 ms
Avg: 6 ms
Max: 20 ms

Signaling Quality Post-Pickup Delay 102 ms
Call Setup Time 105 ms
Media Delay 133 ms

If you've got friends or family in your area on your ADSL, I'd ask them to run the speed test and send you the results for comparison. Sometimes two people in different neighborhoods with the same ISP can get totally different results. Maybe your provider has some flaky equipment at your CO or some funky routing...or maybe you have a frayed line at the junction box...you never know. But based on those results, something has to be wrong somewhere...those results seem way out of spec.
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jpd
Vonage Forum Junior
Vonage Forum Junior


Joined: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Bangkok, Thailand

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
If you've got friends or family in your area on your ADSL, I'd ask them to run the speed test and send you the results for comparison. Sometimes two people in different neighborhoods with the same ISP can get totally different results. Maybe your provider has some flaky equipment at your CO or some funky routing...or maybe you have a frayed line at the junction box...you never know. But based on those results, something has to be wrong somewhere...those results seem way out of spec.


Thanks for the help ToddlerTN. I think I'm getting the picture. It is likely an ISP issue as I suspect. I am already on my second ADSL provider here (Bangkok). There is no such thing as cable here and ADSL only recently became reasonable. I was paying $150 per month for 512/256 service 6 months ago and now enjoy 2500/512 for about $35 per month. With the higher bandwidth came ever changing quality issues (see previous post). I'm guessing a lot of the problems are related to growing pains with the ISP since the huge price drop.

The sum of this ISPs entire bandwidth is listed below:

No Inter Link Speed Type Destination Status
1 DACOM 45 Mbps Fiber KOREA up
2 IIG PNC2 650 Mbps Fiber Thailand up
3 IIG True 155 Mbps Fiber Thailand up
4 IIG True 650 Mbps Fiber Thailand up
total 1500 Mbps

No Domestic Link Speed Type Destination Status
1 NIX LINK1 100 Mbps Fiber Thailand up
2 NIX LINK2 100 Mbps Fiber Thailand up
3 NIX LINK3 1000 Mbps Fiber Thailand up
4 NIX LINK4 (True) 1000 Mbps Fiber Thailand up
total 2.2 Gbps

This is the lion's share of the ISP fiber in/out of Thailand from what I understand so it is gobbled up easily. I have been discussing this with 8 other guys on the same provider all have the same unfortunate results. Changing providers is enough of a pain that changing back would likely not happen for 3-4 months if I had worse results hence the discussion around two pipes at the same time.

I will likely get the second ADSL service even if I need to switch manually just to try. I suppose my only real question remaining would be if anyone has tried it with Vonage and what things to look for if I decided to buy a Dual WAN router on my next trip to the US.

I found this: http://www.xincom.com/support/voip_support.html in case anyone is interested. Thanks again for the suggestions and comments.
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ToddlerTN
Vonage Forum Evangelist
Vonage Forum Evangelist


Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Nashville, TN

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well now I understand your predicament and why you went down the path you started on. I guess I would test the service from any other providers and just keep the best one, unless you really need more bandwidth for normal web activities. Good luck with it.
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hstuven
New Forum Member
New Forum Member


Joined: Mar 27, 2005
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Dual WAN Router and Vonage Reply with quote Back to top

Check out HotBrick.com
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eliotj
Vonage Forum Junior
Vonage Forum Junior


Joined: Feb 01, 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Alamo, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:25 pm    Post subject: testyourvoip.com Reply with quote Back to top

I keep seeing people that trust TESTYOURVOIP.COM


Why do you all believe this? This site tells me I may as well use tin cans and a string!!!!

And get this: I have a mail server, web server and TWO Voip lines. One Vonage and one packet8 (only because Vonage can't get off their butts and give me this area code)

There are just too many factors involved here. Time of day, how many hops to the destination, what routing protocols the hops' routers are using, if it's backup routers because of a problem (I.E temp failure), quality of the local ISP's broadband connection, proximity to your own router, if wireless, of wired, speed of computer.

This list could go on and on and on.

Your call quality will do the EXACT same as your network traffic - it will fluctuate GREATLY depending on these factors! Just like POTS and any other electronic devices!

My advice: Don't use this site to decide IF you should or shouldn't use Voip! Locate someone in your area, borrow their device. Or signup and be DARNED SURE you get a 30 day money back, no-cancellation fee agreement!

Just my thoughts from a former network engineer.
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jpd
Vonage Forum Junior
Vonage Forum Junior


Joined: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Bangkok, Thailand

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

UPDATE 30Mar05:

As of last week I changed my ADSL from the home 2560/512 to a business 2560/512 service from the same provider. Magic.

Have had no poor quality calls in over a week. From what I understand the business accounts get higher priority...???

It was difficult to get the business account. Normally customers must have a registered company but I showed the customer service my speed test results -did not mention Voip- and asked them to bend the rules (after all its three times more expensive). In any case, my Vonage line works and my ADSL is more stable. Below are new results. I will likely not persue the Dual WAN router any further.

MOS Analysis from You TO Boston

Media Quality MOS 3.8 / 5.0
(Best with G.711 is 4.4)

Degradation Sources
Codec 0.58 46.1%
Latency 0.51 40.4%
Packet Discards 0.00 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.17 13.5%

Codec G.711 (PCM at 64kbps,
20ms RTP payload,
80kbps IP BW)
Round-Trip
Latency 554 ms
Packet Discards 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.5%
Loss Periods Min: 20 ms
Avg: 20 ms
Max: 20 ms
Random Loss

Jitter Min: 1 ms
Avg: 6 ms
Max: 18 ms

Signaling Quality Post-Dial Delay 516 ms
Call Setup Time 531 ms
Media Delay 1063 ms
MOS Analysis FROM Boston To You

Media Quality MOS 4.0 / 5.0
(Best with G.711 is 4.4)

Degradation Sources
Codec 0.57 55.7%
Latency 0.46 44.3%
Packet Discards 0.00 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.00 0.0%

Codec G.711 (PCM at 64kbps,
20ms RTP payload,
80kbps IP BW)
Round-Trip
Latency 554 ms
Packet Discards 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.0%
Loss Periods Min: 0 ms
Avg: 0 ms
Max: 0 ms
No Loss

Jitter Min: 4 ms
Avg: 7 ms
Max: 20 ms

Signaling Quality Post-Pickup Delay 523 ms
Call Setup Time 525 ms
Media Delay 555 ms

_________________
Vonage user since: 01-Oct-04
ISP Thai: TRUE SME ADSL 2560/512, Motorola VT1005v
SoftPhone - SPA-3102 with VoIP>PSTN and PSTN>VoIP
ISP USA: Qwest vDSL 1536/896, Linksys PAP2
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rplakas
New Forum Member
New Forum Member


Joined: Apr 05, 2005
Posts: 2
Location: NJ

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Care to share how you setup your Xincom to handle Vonage?



limmerguy wrote:
a dual wan router and connection won't solve your packet loss and latency problems. When using a dual wan router, you need to have something called "port binding" enabled for each of your Vonage adapters. Voip doesn't work on dual wan routers without it. This setting basically restricts all traffic into and out of the ATA onto one WAN connection (unless the WAN fails, then it resorts to the other). Dual WAN is great for websurfing, but doesn't work like it should with Voip.

We have an Xincom XC-DPG503 at our office with 4 Linksys ATAs and 2 DSL connections.

Now for that packet loss... Is your MTA in front of your network? what is your latency? ISP?
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