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ToddlerTN
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Also, Chairman Powell's vision for Voip regulation (I really wish he wasn't leaving early, and if you absorb what he is saying, I think you'll understand that regulation in this case is designed to protect the rights of the consumer):

From New Telephony, "FCC's Powell: Let's Start a Revolution"
Posted on: 11/09/2004

Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Michael Powell called today for a "revolution," a dramatic change in how the United States regulates communication, one that recognizes the "unique character" of voice over IP and gives the federal government primary jurisdiction over voice over IP and other IP communication services.
Delivering the keynote at the Fall Voice on the Net (VON) conference in Boston, Mass., USA, Powell emphasized the change that is needed "is not an adjustment of regulations. It is nothing short of the future of electronic and optical communication for years to come, and we must get this right," adding, "I think it is wrong, just plain wrong, not to recognize the significant of voice over IP or to look at it through the glasses of the old regulatory model."

Powell said, "So here we are on the precipice of something big and, like the founding fathers, we have to decide where we stand. Will we have courage to stand boldly for change?"

"Our forefathers made a new constitution, one fitting the revolution," Powell said. "We too need a new constitution for the regulation of voice-over-IP services." Powell says a new regulatory scheme, in the form of a proposed rule-making, will be presented by the FCC, probably in the form of a proposed regulation, before the end of the year.

A Welcome Message
The industry audience at the conference interrupted Powell's speech several times with applause. Though the chairman has stated before that a unique new regulatory scheme is needed for voice over IP, today's speech was his most unequivocal that the new service must not be treated like the traditional phone system that it is in the process of replacing.

Particularly pleasing to the audience was his promise to assert federal jurisdiction. "The first step is for the commission to step forward and firmly attach federal jurisdiction. I will present to my colleagues that voice over IP should be under exclusive federal jurisdiction. We cannot avoid this question any longer." Some states and even a few municipalities have tried to assert their right to regulate voice over IP and, perhaps more disturbing to many in the industry, treat it like traditional phone service in their regulatory schemes.

Easier Said Than Done
Observers noted that Powell will have his hands full trying to institute his vision, given the recalcitrance of state public utilities commissions and the challenge of making congress understand why and how such new regulation should work. "It will be a real challenge, particularly with the state PUCs," said a lawyer for one of the incumbent carriers, speaking not for attribution.

Powell acknowledged the challenge, saying his first task will be to take on perhaps the most onerous and hotly debated regulatory issue today: intercarrier competition. Intercarrier compensation "was breaking before you showed up," he told the Voip industry audience. "There is a distortion in the common-carrier communication system. A lot of people are using the network in the same way but, because of a label on their foreheads, some pay totally differently, some are getting paid lot and some are paying enormous amounts. This is ridiculous, arbitrary and indefensible."

The solution he says is not to argue whether or not voice over IP should pay, "but rather that all those charges need to be graphed out and brought to a rational structure. So the market decides who wins, not a regulatory structure."

No Broadband Parasites
Powell bristled at a questioner who suggested that services operating on broadband infrastructure that they don't own are "broadband parasites." "I hate that term," he said. "The brilliance of the Internet is that applications should increasingly ride on IP architecture, and that they are unique and divorcable from the architecture."

For the consumers and businesses that use such a service there should be fundamental rights that protect their freedom to use services as they choose, Powell said.
--Consumers should have access to any legal content of choice.
--Consumers should have ability to run or use any applications of their choice
--Users should have the freedom to attach any device to the Internet
--There should be freedom to get any service information about a service of choice.

The FCC rule-making that Powell intends to drive will no doubt spark controversy. However, no matter what the outcome of the looming presidential election, Powell said, "I am fortunate that I have a term that runs until 2007, and we have a revolution to finish."

http://www.newtelephony.com/news/937C12D8-6BAF-4501-A8A6-029EAF5A6218.html?wts=20050306125054&hc=53&req=powell

Unfortunately, he's decided to leave early. Hopefully whoever takes his place will make as much sense as he does.
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Randalllind
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Today's outage - a case for regulation Reply with quote Back to top

Martlet wrote:
antigravityhero wrote:
Folks, if Vonage were actually a LEC, this outage would result in HUGE FCC penalties.

As-is, Vonage has absolutely no accountability except to their customers... though the vast number of customer complaints indicates to me there's no accountability ANYWHERE.

And yet, the CEO of Vonage, Jeff Citron, is hard at work petitioning the FCC to keep ISPs from blocking their traffic. I'm tempted to petition the FCC to require Vonage and other Voip providers to provide a minimum degree of service reliability. I realize the Internet in general cannot be considered "reliable"... however, in cases like today, Vonage is clearly at fault.

Thoughts?


They're accountable to their clients. If you aren't happy with their service, you aren't required to use it.


That is retard if you don't like it leave? How is this going to get people to use the service.

If that is how Vonage feels about there customers then everyone needs to switch.
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Martlet
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Today's outage - a case for regulation Reply with quote Back to top

Randalllind wrote:
Martlet wrote:
antigravityhero wrote:
Folks, if Vonage were actually a LEC, this outage would result in HUGE FCC penalties.

As-is, Vonage has absolutely no accountability except to their customers... though the vast number of customer complaints indicates to me there's no accountability ANYWHERE.

And yet, the CEO of Vonage, Jeff Citron, is hard at work petitioning the FCC to keep ISPs from blocking their traffic. I'm tempted to petition the FCC to require Vonage and other Voip providers to provide a minimum degree of service reliability. I realize the Internet in general cannot be considered "reliable"... however, in cases like today, Vonage is clearly at fault.

Thoughts?




They're accountable to their clients. If you aren't happy with their service, you aren't required to use it.


That is retard if you don't like it leave? How is this going to get people to use the service.

If that is how Vonage feels about there customers then everyone needs to switch.


You're misinterpreting my statement. You also didn't read past my first comment before replying.

There are different types of voice service. Each one has different features, quirks, and costs. In today's age of information, you can research your choice before you make it.

When FireFox was first introduced, I researched it, read the forums, then tried it. I found it wasn't quite where they claimed it was, and didn't meet my standards. I uninstalled it. Over a year ago I began using it again, since it was now up to my standards.

What I didn't do was install it, found out that it didn't work perfectly, but because I still wanted the features and cost, go crying to the government to force them to fix it. I used my other options.
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ToddlerTN
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Posts: 482
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The real problem is how some of you guys are thinking of Voip as your little pet project, like a fancy Skype or something only techies or early adopters would ever get into. Two years ago that was definitely the case; a year ago it was still true; today it's poised to explode. Currently there are 700,000 Voip subscribers in the US; three years from now, that number is predicted to grow by 14,000,000.

You can only make the case against regulation as long as Voip is considered a novelty, which is was a year ago. But today it's becoming a viable alternative, and in a few years it will be literally everywhere. That's why the landline providers are all hedging their bets by investing heavily into Voip operations, as well they should.

Regulation is coming, it's already a done deal. They are just working on the legislation. There are several bills in Congress to address this in various ways, and the FCC has been engaged in a comprehensive overview for the past 18 months to lay the groundwork. And regulation from the government's perspective has very little to do with reliability issues. It has to do with establishing standard protocols and open access so that creative technologies have a chance to flourish, and consumers have more choices in the future.

So moan all you want about regulation, but it will be here before you know it. It's futile, but if you really want to try and stop it, write to your Congressman or the FCC. Complaining in here won't do anything to stop it, that's for sure.


Last edited by ToddlerTN on Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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SaltAquatics
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Very well put Toddler. Your statements are well put together, and the FCC is rolling the plans out. There is not stopping it at this point. The only thing to be determined is to what level they will regulate. The time has come.

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Martlet
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ToddlerTN wrote:
The real problem is how some of you guys are thinking of Voip as your little pet project, like a fancy Skype or something only techies or early adopters would ever get into. Two years ago that was definitely the case; a year ago it was still true; today it's poised to explode. Currently there are 700,000 Voip subscribers in the US; three years from now, that number is predicted to grow by 14,000,000.

You can only make the case against regulation as long as Voip is considered a novelty, which is was a year ago. But today it's becoming a viable alternative, and in a few years it will be literally everywhere. That's why the landline providers are all hedging their bets by investing heavily into Voip operations, as well they should.

Regulation is coming, it's already a done deal. They are just working on the legislation. There are several bills in Congress to address this in various ways, and the FCC has been engaged in a comprehensive overview for the past 18 months to lay the groundwork. Voip was a novelty a year ago, it's a viable alternative now and in a few years it will be literally everywhere. The landline providers are all hedging their bets by investing heavily into Voip operations, as well they should.

And regulation from the government's perspective has very little to do with reliability issues. It has to do with establishing standard protocols and open access so that creative technologies have a chance to flourish, and consumers have more choices in the future.

So moan all you want about regulation, but it will be here before you know it. It's futile, but if you really want to try and stop it, write to your Congressman or the FCC. Complaining in here won't do anything to stop it, that's for sure.


Several points. One, you're dead wrong. You place restrictions on the discussion by setting boundaries and declaring everyone must follow them.

I can't make a case against regulation? Why? Because you say so? I can make a case against regulating just about anything. There are very few things I feel the government should be regulating. Your first argument failed, so you fall back on "because I said so".

Fine. If you would like the government to have their fingers in everything you do, that's your right. If you want to criticize me because I don't want them in my business, that's your right as well. Me? I'm a big boy. I'll speak my mind with my wallet. And I have.

If you'd like to call anyone voicing an opinion different than yours a "moaner" and a "whiner", you've already lost. Both sides have brought up good points. Just because you can no longer defend yours isn't an excuse to change the tone of the discussion. Just walk away from it and come back when you have information to support your argument.
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ToddlerTN
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Come back when I have information to support my argument?

If you read the articles I posted, you'd have seen that the entire Voip industry, including Vonage, already agrees that the industry will be regulated. It's just the scope of regulation that's still being worked out.

Quote:
Possible Grounds for Agreement?
The views exchanged during the forum covered a broad spectrum. It was encouraging and somewhat surprising at this earlier stage in the regulatory debate that there seemed to be a fair amount of common ground on the major issues. All parties seemed to recognize the need for regulation of voice over IP.

At the extremes, Carl Wood, commissioner, California Public Utilities Commission (PUC) seemed to advocate the most regulation, while Jeffrey Citron, CEO of consumer Voip service Vonage seemed to be at the other end of the spectrum advocating a minimalist approach to regulation.

Wood contended that extensive regulation is needed to protect consumer interests, while Citron cited the risks of stifling innovation, losing American jobs and reducing tax revenues as the basis for minimal regulation. In other words, they provided the usual arguments that can apply no matter what the topic of regulation. The answer will fall between these points of views, and was shared by most in attendance.


Scroll up a bit for the entire article; you must have missed it. Or maybe you're just living in a world where you keep yourself completely disconnected from reality. Even Vonage isn't trying to stop regulation of Voip, they're just trying to influence the scope of regulation.

Face the facts, you're not even with Vonage on this one. Regulation is coming. When every major player in the industry agrees regulation in some form is needed and inevitable, how could you still believe it won't happen? They're not even fighting it.


Last edited by ToddlerTN on Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Martlet
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ToddlerTN wrote:
Come back when I have information to support my argument?

If you read the articles I posted, you'd have seen that the entire Voip industry, including Vonage, already agrees that the industry will be regulated. It's just the scope of regulation that's still being worked out.

Quote:
Possible Grounds for Agreement?
The views exchanged during the forum covered a broad spectrum. It was encouraging and somewhat surprising at this earlier stage in the regulatory debate that there seemed to be a fair amount of common ground on the major issues. All parties seemed to recognize the need for regulation of voice over IP.

At the extremes, Carl Wood, commissioner, California Public Utilities Commission (PUC) seemed to advocate the most regulation, while Jeffrey Citron, CEO of consumer Voip service Vonage seemed to be at the other end of the spectrum advocating a minimalist approach to regulation.

Wood contended that extensive regulation is needed to protect consumer interests, while Citron cited the risks of stifling innovation, losing American jobs and reducing tax revenues as the basis for minimal regulation. In other words, they provided the usual arguments that can apply no matter what the topic of regulation. The answer will fall between these points of views, and was shared by most in attendance.


Scroll up a bit for the entire article; you must have missed it. Or maybe you're just living in a world where you keep yourself completely disconnected from reality.


Perhaps I should have said "come back when you understand the topic", then. We've been discussing "A case for regulation", not "We're going to be regulated, deal with it".

Stating that we are going to be regulated, therefore it's the right thing to do is a logically fallible argument. Hence, it's illogical that you would fall to it when your on-topic case loses steam.
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SaltAquatics
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Lol Some people just have a hard time dealing with reality. Reality is... that one way or another, Vonage and every other Voip provider will be regulated at one point or another. Details take time to work out. "Hang in there". You'll be regulated soon enough. Enjoy the non-regulation while you can. You see, its already in motion. You can voice your opinion all you want and your voice to those that are pushing for it. Thing is, like i was told before, if you don't like it, you can go elsewhere for service.

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ToddlerTN
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Martlet wrote:
Perhaps I should have said "come back when you understand the topic", then. We've been discussing "A case for regulation", not "We're going to be regulated, deal with it".

Stating that we are going to be regulated, therefore it's the right thing to do is a logically fallible argument. Hence, it's illogical that you would fall to it when your on-topic case loses steam.

Alright, to recap:

- Someone starts a thread saying "here's the case for regulation"
- A bunch of guys start shouting "I don't want to pay any taxes, if you don't like it, go back to POTS"

Not the greatest comeback, really.

- Someone says "the government has an interest in protecting consumers' rights, e911, open standards, etc."
- A bunch of guys start shouting "I don't want to pay any taxes, if you don't like it, go back to POTS"

Thus the pattern begins.

- Someone says "it's bigger than consumers complaining, it's about establishing technical standards for Voip, access issues, Homeland Security, giving business a secure framework to build services on now and into the future"
- A bunch of guys start shouting "I don't want to pay any taxes, if you don't like it, go back to POTS"

So I point out that the entire industry already agrees that regulation is needed, to protect both consumers and providers. The FCC has already established jurisdiction, the state agencies are working with the federal government and even Congress is currently crafting legislation to codify this into law.

And now your response is that I've gone off-topic?

The entire industry already agrees that regulation is needed. Doesn't the fact that the entire industry disagrees with you make you at least consider that you just might be wrong after all?

Now of course you can be wrong and still present your case. But all I've heard is "I don't want to pay any taxes, if you don't like it, go back to POTS." Has anyone posted anything else to support the case against regulation? Give me some sources, some attribution. Is anyone in Congress working against regulating Voip? Are any of the FCC commissioners weighing in against regulation? Is anyone in the industry fighting regulation? Let us know what they've said, why they think it's a bad idea. My opinions are based on what's going on in the industry and what those who are involved are saying. If your opinions are based on anything more than "I don't want to pay any taxes" then please show me. Change my mind, I want to see that evidence.

I've given plenty of specific reasons why regulation is needed. I've provided the facts regarding what industry players and the government are already doing in terms of creating a framework of regulatory oversight. I've given quotes from Vonage CEO Jeffrey Citron acknowledging that regulation is needed and inevitable. I've shown that no one in the industry is even debating whether regulation is necessary. I've provided statements from FCC Chairman Powell and others who address Voip regulation not in terms or whether to do it but in terms of how it will be done.

If at this point you want to post some specific reasons why you're against regulation, go for it. Outside of this forum, you seem to be standing alone, but if anyone in the Voip industry has taken a stand against regulation in any form then please let me know.
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