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dconnor
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Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Posts: 2263
Location: The Beach

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SaltAquatics wrote:
dconnor wrote:
SaltAquatics wrote:
Well, at the verge of being flamed.... I stand with my opinion... Regulate Vonage.


Please take this kindly, but I believe you are sorely mistaken if you think regulations will fix *your* issues.


"My" issues? As site admin I would think that youve seen the hundreds of posts with issues. Hundreds, ? probably thousands. Especially today, this was no isolated incident. This was in fact a Vonage failure. This im sure is not the first, and wont be the last.


Please focus on my comment:
Quote:
Please take this kindly, but I believe you are sorely mistaken if you think regulations will fix *your* issues.


My position stands after having read *EVERY* post on this site include all of yours.

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sdstuckey
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Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Trek:
Poor example?

1st: I did not list my exhaustive complaint list with the various providers listed. In the last 12 months I have 14 tickets on those t-1's. By my calculations I have about a 95% uptime on those t-1s. I also pointed out that there are loopholes in regulation that do not make regulation better. It just makes better liars (or is that lawyers?).

2nd: I gave three (or four) examples of regulated services failing. (in a short time period)

3rd: Martlet had a point. If you want regulated 99.9999% uptime, go buy it. Drop Voip. POTS was originally regulated because the consumer had little, if any, choice. I can relate many of grandfather's stories of 'new fangled telly-fones' problems. We are now in an era where you/we do have a choice. I choose to have my 99.87% uptime on three lines for $57 instead of my 99.999% POTS at $100 +LD.

4th: You have a point. This is new. Staying mute wil not help. There are problems. Not only Vonage but ATT Vantage, Lingo etc. And yes if in three years I lose phones 2 hours a month I'll be torqued off too. But regulation is not always the answer. Moving your dollars away from the unsatisfactory provider and to the more satisfactory provider can be though. Forums like this also help if the provider listens.

The final question is: How much are you willing to pay for how many 9's?
99.0% will always cost less than 99.99999%

Or, as my engineering/philosophy professor used to say:
It is not feasible to make something better, faster, cheaper and more reliable than you have currently. Pick three of the four.

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DarKev
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Joined: Jan 25, 2005
Posts: 336
Location: Gatineau, QC

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure what problems the outage caused in the US. Nobody seems to have mentioned the issues. I know that there was a problem with my phone in Canada today. I was at work and my dentist's office called me to confirm a dental appointment I have next week. They asked me if I changed my home phone number. I said, "No." Then she said, "The reason I'm asking is because I called your number and a recording came on stating that your number was not in service." I called my home phone number immediately after getting off of the phone with the dentist, and sure enough - I received this message from my work POTS line stating that the number I dialed was not in service. I tried to call the voicemail line - same thing. I got a recording stating that even that number was not in service. I sent an email to Vonage letting them know about this trouble. I tried calling an hour later and it seemed to be working.

I was never expecting the POTS system to state that my home phone number was not in service. It took my by complete surprise. This could be detrimental to a business for sure, as customers would not call back. Not once did my calls forward to my system unavailable number. So I completely understand why people are upset if this is what also happened in the US on March 4th.

All we can do is keep our fingers crossed that this does not happen again. I am sure it was some technical glitch, and even if Vonage was regulated, I doubt it would have prevented this. I would hope that Vonage, on their own accord, would find a permanent solution to this in an effort to keep their business.

I think if I were a business, I would choose Vonage as an outgoing line only, so that I could place lower priced long distance calls. I don't think I would use it as my main business number line. At least not at this point. Maybe when all of the bugs are worked out and the service becomes completely reliable I would choose it exclusively. In time to come, I'm positive that it will become just as reliable as POTS. Humans always figure out ways to overcome obstacles like this.

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cuzzort
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Joined: Feb 04, 2005
Posts: 64
Location: Indianapolis IN

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SaltAquatics wrote:
dconnor wrote:
SaltAquatics wrote:
Well, at the verge of being flamed.... I stand with my opinion... Regulate Vonage.


Please take this kindly, but I believe you are sorely mistaken if you think regulations will fix *your* issues.


"My" issues? As site admin I would think that youve seen the hundreds of posts with issues. Hundreds, ? probably thousands. Especially today, this was no isolated incident. This was in fact a Vonage failure. This im sure is not the first, and wont be the last.

You are making a case for POTS. If you are unhappy with Vonage, or any Voip service, go back to your previous service as I am sure they will be happy to have you as a customer and you will be happy with their service. I and all others are free to make that choice and I choose Vonage.

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Firefly
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Joined: Nov 13, 2004
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

My three cents worth - I've had multiple POTS outages over the years, some lasting several days. I've also had at least two cases where my line was "crossed" with someone else's, and my phone would ring when someone else's number was called. It was fun tracking THAT one down....

I've been with Vonage only a few months, but I've been very happy with it, have not noticed any outages, and I am paying only half of what I used to pay while getting more service.

I know the risks, and made the decision as to whether it was worth it. So far, it has been.
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DNERO
Vonage Forum Associate
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Joined: Feb 27, 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I think in order to believe regulations would help you would have to believe Vonage doesn’t do everything it can to keep their service up and running. and considering they are not in comfy position like a Ma Bell is I doubt that. Their biggest marketing play is still word of mouth and keeping you happy makes them money. Also, what specifically about regulation is going to fix this? My home line has craped out on me, I have an annoying clicking sound constantly and they come to fix it and it just happens again. Right now we pay $20 in taxes a month for a conventional line and I dont see a huge difference between my Vonage service and my Direct TV or my Cell or my home phone. These are the chances we pioneers take to be apart of new technology and have some cost cut. What the hell would be the advantage of taxing people more? You can fine Vonnage till your blue in the face, your still gonna have problems, the only difference is soon its gonna cost the same as a conventional line and nobody will have a real choice based on price.

As far as business go, I still would not suggest Vonage for a business for the same reason I wouldnt suggest they use a cell phone for a business and my cell has plenty of regulatory charges.

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Martlet
Vonage Forum Master
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Joined: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Trek234 wrote:
Martlet wrote:
Trek234 wrote:
sdstuckey wrote:
Interesting.

I have a business. I have 3 T1's (in various configurations) for voice and data services. Each via a different provider (XO Xspedius Verizon).

Just last month 2 t's went down roughly about the same time. Each was out for ~5 hours. AND they are regulated. AND they cost $500/627/639 a month. + long distance.

Here is the interesting thing... if a t1 goes into "alarm" for more than X minutes the carrier usually takes the t 'offline'. They have to reset the everything to get you up again. Wanna know why? When the T is 'offline' they dont have to report it as 'down'... hence they can keep their uptimes in the 99.xxx % (regulated) ranges. What does regulation do there?

Now in comparison I have 3 Vonage lines at home. My wife didn't even notice the outage. Shes of Hebrew heritage and spends a lot of time on the phone (not to be stereotyping but its true) She called me at 3:27PM and screamed that HBO wasn't working. In fact when Florida had its hurricanes last year people in my neighborhood were lining up at my door to use my "cable phone" to let relatives know they were ok. Their regulated service was down.

Whoda thunk it?


Amusing bringing up ONE isolated example of a regulated service failing. In 20 years I've never had ONE POTS outage. I have a feeling this is the experience of the vast majority of current and former POTS users.


Then why don't you still use pots lines?


Your question is entirely irrelevant to the point. The poster was using his isolated example in a poor attempt to make the case regulated services go out. The fact is, however, regulated services such as POTS rarely, if ever, go out.

I am using Voip because I expect it to improve over time to at least be on par with POTS as far as reliability is concerned. Unlike some people I want to service I pay for to meet my needs and expectations. However, I am not unreasonable and I realize this is a new tech and such things take time and I am certainly willing to give that time. If, however, two years from now a major outage is occurring every other month then they've passed the realm of reason. I would hope they start working *now* on such improvements, and staying mute about issues certainly isn't going to motivate.


My question is entirely RELEVANT to the point. Labeling it otherwise as a straw man avoidance tactic.

If you aren't happy with Voip quality, but you would be happy with POTS quality, then why wouldn't you switch to POTS? Unless, of course, you prefer the savings or features of Voip, then you decide which is more important.

What you DON'T do is buy a Hyundai, compare it to your neighbors Mercedes, then try to force Hyundai to have the reliability, features, and looks of Mercedes while maintaining the Hyundai price.
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cuzzort
Full Forum Member
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Joined: Feb 04, 2005
Posts: 64
Location: Indianapolis IN

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Martlet wrote:
What you DON'T do is buy a Hyundai, compare it to your neighbors Mercedes, then try to force Hyundai to have the reliability, features, and looks of Mercedes while maintaining the Hyundai price.

Well said, Martlet...

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sajer
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Joined: Dec 16, 2004
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Government regulation has historically been used not to improve or guarantee quality, but to curb market forces when necessary in order to guarantee universal access to certain products or to prevent monopoly pricing or to improve safety.

Market forces are really the best mechanism for driving quality improvements.

The Voip industry in truly in its infancy. Do you think the first few years that Ford made cars that they always ran well, did not have "outages", and did not cause disruptions in accepted social norms at that time? Would regulation at that early stage of the industry have helped it develop?

Take a look at the Voip providers -- are any of them profitable today ? Will government regulation increase or decrease their chance for survival, with increased taxation and user fees?

The answers are obvious. If you want a regulated telecom environment, you can have one. Its where you came from. Get back in your ships and sail back to the old world.
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LuisPR
Vonage Forum Master
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Joined: Oct 08, 2004
Posts: 292

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

DNERO wrote:
what specifically about regulation is going to fix this?


Not a bloody thing. Some under-achiever with not a single clue of the technology will be making discussions regarding your service. Oui this fires me up something nasty. The people on this forum that have one little hiccup with their service and they are crying for regulations... you fools.

The day Voip is regulated (on a state PUC level) is the day I remove all phones from my life.
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