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ToddlerTN
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Posts: 482
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I think you guys keep ignoring the fact that no one outside this forum agrees with you in opposing all regulation of Voip. Besides just saying "I don't want to pay more than $24.95," can you come up with any facts, show me some industry analysis or give me some names of people in the industry who are against regulation?

I can't believe all the articles and quotes I've provided on the pro-regulation side, and no one can find one study or cite even one industry source who opposes regulating Voip?

Show me the other side, I'm willing to listen, if you can find it. I doubt if you can, though, because you're arguing about something that has already been decided and agreed upon in principle.

What was that saying..."cursing the darkness is futile," right?
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Martlet
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ToddlerTN wrote:
I think you guys keep ignoring the fact that no one outside this forum agrees with you in opposing all regulation of Voip. Besides just saying "I don't want to pay more than $24.95," can you come up with any facts, show me some industry analysis or give me some names of people in the industry who are against regulation?

I can't believe all the articles and quotes I've provided on the pro-regulation side, and no one can find one study or cite even one industry source who opposes regulating Voip?

Show me the other side, I'm willing to listen, if you can find it. I doubt if you can, though, because you're arguing about something that has already been decided and agreed upon in principle.

What was that saying..."cursing the darkness is futile," right?


The topic of the thread was "A case for regulation". That's been explained to you several times, but you have trouble understanding it. The topic wasn't "who's for regulation", "everyone wants regulation and me too", or "too bad, regulation is going to happen anyway". People have expressed their reasons for not wanting regulation. You've just insulted people, dismissed their argument while failing to present one of your own, and repeatedly stated "everyone agrees with me so I must be right" without stating any reasons why you might be right or even who agrees with you.

As I've said before, I'm waiting for you to address any of the points presented. I'm beginning to think maybe you can't. Why else would you adopt a straw man argument?
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SaltAquatics
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 126
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

VitaminM wrote:
On a note that is ALSO unrelated to the topic of this discussion:
I like ramen noodles a lot.


Unrelated? It doesn't even matter really. This thread was started as if regulation isn't on its way. Stop trying to close your eyes and ignore it. Its going to happen. If you agree with it or not, if i agree with it or not, its going to happen. what is the problem here?

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Martlet
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Posts: 206
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SaltAquatics wrote:
VitaminM wrote:
On a note that is ALSO unrelated to the topic of this discussion:
I like ramen noodles a lot.


Unrelated? It doesn't even matter really. This thread was started as if regulation isn't on its way. Stop trying to close your eyes and ignore it. Its going to happen. If you agree with it or not, if i agree with it or not, its going to happen. what is the problem here?


Again, you don't understand the topic. Now you've just become a cheerleader.
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SaltAquatics
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

LMAO... a cheerleader? Did I hurt your feelings by letting you know the obvious? That its GOING to happen? That the proof lies there in the posts that Toddler put up?

Look, regardless of this thread or what you think about regulation, its really a useless point to argue because its bound to happen. Its time to just grow up and deal with it.

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Martlet
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Posts: 206
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SaltAquatics wrote:
LMAO... a cheerleader? Did I hurt your feelings by letting you know the obvious? That its GOING to happen? That the proof lies there in the posts that Toddler put up?

Look, regardless of this thread or what you think about regulation, its really a useless point to argue because its bound to happen. Its time to just grow up and deal with it.


Yes, a cheerleader.

No one has debated whether or not the industry will be regulated. The debate is whether or not it should be and why you feel that way.

You've adopted neither position, and instead yell "here it comes, shut up and take it". That's great if you feel that way. Move on to a discussion about it. Until this thread was derailed, we were discussing something else. You've yet to add to that discussion.
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VitaminM
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Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Martlet wrote:
antigravityhero wrote:
Folks, if Vonage were actually a LEC, this outage would result in HUGE FCC penalties.

As-is, Vonage has absolutely no accountability except to their customers... though the vast number of customer complaints indicates to me there's no accountability ANYWHERE.

And yet, the CEO of Vonage, Jeff Citron, is hard at work petitioning the FCC to keep ISPs from blocking their traffic. I'm tempted to petition the FCC to require Vonage and other Voip providers to provide a minimum degree of service reliability. I realize the Internet in general cannot be considered "reliable"... however, in cases like today, Vonage is clearly at fault.

Thoughts?


They're accountable to their clients. If you aren't happy with their service, you aren't required to use it.


That is retard if you don't like it leave? How is this going to get people to use the service.

If that is how Vonage feels about there customers then everyone needs to switch.

Quote:
Randalllind wrote:
Martlet wrote:
antigravityhero wrote:
Folks, if Vonage were actually a LEC, this outage would result in HUGE FCC penalties.

As-is, Vonage has absolutely no accountability except to their customers... though the vast number of customer complaints indicates to me there's no accountability ANYWHERE.

And yet, the CEO of Vonage, Jeff Citron, is hard at work petitioning the FCC to keep ISPs from blocking their traffic. I'm tempted to petition the FCC to require Vonage and other Voip providers to provide a minimum degree of service reliability. I realize the Internet in general cannot be considered "reliable"... however, in cases like today, Vonage is clearly at fault.

Thoughts?




They're accountable to their clients. If you aren't happy with their service, you aren't required to use it.


That is retard if you don't like it leave? How is this going to get people to use the service.

If that is how Vonage feels about there customers then everyone needs to switch.


You're misinterpreting my statement. You also didn't read past my first comment before replying.

There are different types of voice service. Each one has different features, quirks, and costs. In today's age of information, you can research your choice before you make it.

When FireFox was first introduced, I researched it, read the forums, then tried it. I found it wasn't quite where they claimed it was, and didn't meet my standards. I uninstalled it. Over a year ago I began using it again, since it was now up to my standards.

What I didn't do was install it, found out that it didn't work perfectly, but because I still wanted the features and cost, go crying to the government to force them to fix it. I used my other options.

Quote:
The real problem is how some of you guys are thinking of Voip as your little pet project, like a fancy Skype or something only techies or early adopters would ever get into. Two years ago that was definitely the case; a year ago it was still true; today it's poised to explode. Currently there are 700,000 Voip subscribers in the US; three years from now, that number is predicted to grow by 14,000,000.

You can only make the case against regulation as long as Voip is considered a novelty, which is was a year ago. But today it's becoming a viable alternative, and in a few years it will be literally everywhere. That's why the landline providers are all hedging their bets by investing heavily into Voip operations, as well they should.

Regulation is coming, it's already a done deal. They are just working on the legislation. There are several bills in Congress to address this in various ways, and the FCC has been engaged in a comprehensive overview for the past 18 months to lay the groundwork. And regulation from the government's perspective has very little to do with reliability issues. It has to do with establishing standard protocols and open access so that creative technologies have a chance to flourish, and consumers have more choices in the future.

So moan all you want about regulation, but it will be here before you know it. It's futile, but if you really want to try and stop it, write to your Congressman or the FCC. Complaining in here won't do anything to stop it, that's for sure.

Quote:
Very well put Toddler. Your statements are well put together, and the FCC is rolling the plans out. There is not stopping it at this point. The only thing to be determined is to what level they will regulate. The time has come.

_________________
Javier

Quote:
Several points. One, you're dead wrong. You place restrictions on the discussion by setting boundaries and declaring everyone must follow them.

I can't make a case against regulation? Why? Because you say so? I can make a case against regulating just about anything. There are very few things I feel the government should be regulating. Your first argument failed, so you fall back on "because I said so".

Fine. If you would like the government to have their fingers in everything you do, that's your right. If you want to criticize me because I don't want them in my business, that's your right as well. Me? I'm a big boy. I'll speak my mind with my wallet. And I have.

If you'd like to call anyone voicing an opinion different than yours a "moaner" and a "whiner", you've already lost. Both sides have brought up good points. Just because you can no longer defend yours isn't an excuse to change the tone of the discussion. Just walk away from it and come back when you have information to support your argument.

Quote:
Come back when I have information to support my argument?

If you read the articles I posted, you'd have seen that the entire Voip industry, including Vonage, already agrees that the industry will be regulated. It's just the scope of regulation that's still being worked out.

Quote:
Possible Grounds for Agreement?
The views exchanged during the forum covered a broad spectrum. It was encouraging and somewhat surprising at this earlier stage in the regulatory debate that there seemed to be a fair amount of common ground on the major issues. All parties seemed to recognize the need for regulation of voice over IP.

At the extremes, Carl Wood, commissioner, California Public Utilities Commission (PUC) seemed to advocate the most regulation, while Jeffrey Citron, CEO of consumer Voip service Vonage seemed to be at the other end of the spectrum advocating a minimalist approach to regulation.

Wood contended that extensive regulation is needed to protect consumer interests, while Citron cited the risks of stifling innovation, losing American jobs and reducing tax revenues as the basis for minimal regulation. In other words, they provided the usual arguments that can apply no matter what the topic of regulation. The answer will fall between these points of views, and was shared by most in attendance.


Scroll up a bit for the entire article; you must have missed it. Or maybe you're just living in a world where you keep yourself completely disconnected from reality. Even Vonage isn't trying to stop regulation of Voip, they're just trying to influence the scope of regulation.

Face the facts, you're not even with Vonage on this one. Regulation is coming. When every major player in the industry agrees regulation in some form is needed and inevitable, how could you still believe it won't happen? They're not even fighting it.

Quote:
Perhaps I should have said "come back when you understand the topic", then. We've been discussing "A case for regulation", not "We're going to be regulated, deal with it".

Stating that we are going to be regulated, therefore it's the right thing to do is a logically fallible argument. Hence, it's illogical that you would fall to it when your on-topic case loses steam.

Quote:
Lol Some people just have a hard time dealing with reality. Reality is... that one way or another, Vonage and every other Voip provider will be regulated at one point or another. Details take time to work out. "Hang in there". You'll be regulated soon enough. Enjoy the non-regulation while you can. You see, its already in motion. You can voice your opinion all you want and your voice to those that are pushing for it. Thing is, like i was told before, if you don't like it, you can go elsewhere for service.

_________________
Javier

Quote:
Alright, to recap:

- Someone starts a thread saying "here's the case for regulation"
- A bunch of guys start shouting "I don't want to pay any taxes, if you don't like it, go back to POTS"

Not the greatest comeback, really.

- Someone says "the government has an interest in protecting consumers' rights, e911, open standards, etc."
- A bunch of guys start shouting "I don't want to pay any taxes, if you don't like it, go back to POTS"

Thus the pattern begins.

- Someone says "it's bigger than consumers complaining, it's about establishing technical standards for Voip, access issues, Homeland Security, giving business a secure framework to build services on now and into the future"
- A bunch of guys start shouting "I don't want to pay any taxes, if you don't like it, go back to POTS"

So I point out that the entire industry already agrees that regulation is needed, to protect both consumers and providers. The FCC has already established jurisdiction, the state agencies are working with the federal government and even Congress is currently crafting legislation to codify this into law.

And now your response is that I've gone off-topic?

The entire industry already agrees that regulation is needed. Doesn't the fact that the entire industry disagrees with you make you at least consider that you just might be wrong after all?

Now of course you can be wrong and still present your case. But all I've heard is "I don't want to pay any taxes, if you don't like it, go back to POTS." Has anyone posted anything else to support the case against regulation? Give me some sources, some attribution. Is anyone in Congress working against regulating Voip? Are any of the FCC commissioners weighing in against regulation? Is anyone in the industry fighting regulation? Let us know what they've said, why they think it's a bad idea. My opinions are based on what's going on in the industry and what those who are involved are saying. If your opinions are based on anything more than "I don't want to pay any taxes" then please show me. Change my mind, I want to see that evidence.

I've given plenty of specific reasons why regulation is needed. I've provided the facts regarding what industry players and the government are already doing in terms of creating a framework of regulatory oversight. I've given quotes from Vonage CEO Jeffrey Citron acknowledging that regulation is needed and inevitable. I've shown that no one in the industry is even debating whether regulation is necessary. I've provided statements from FCC Chairman Powell and others who address Voip regulation not in terms or whether to do it but in terms of how it will be done.

If at this point you want to post some specific reasons why you're against regulation, go for it. Outside of this forum, you seem to be standing alone, but if anyone in the Voip industry has taken a stand against regulation in any form then please let me know.

Quote:
Oversimplifying the discussion to belittle one side while bolster your own is a losers argument. There have been numerous reasons against regulation given. Your decision to pretend they don't exist in an attempt to cause your repeated cries of "it's going to happen" to appear more realistic only bolsters my position.

In a free market absent of a monopoly you've yet to provide a compelling argument beyond "I'm right, I know I am", "you're all whiners", "no one agrees with you" and the like.

Now you speak of this grandiose case you've presented yet it just doesn't exist. All that has come from you are straw men and insults. You've bored everyone debating you away.

I'm still waiting.

Quote:
And if there is an alternative then, I will. Why pay the same for Voip as I pay for POTS?

Quote:
That's probably the perfect summary for the thread. It demonstrates both a complete lack of understanding with regards to the economics that make Voip so affordable, while also underscoring your short-sighted "anything to save a nickel" mentality.

Quote:
Ah yes. When you can't defend your argument, attack the debater. Actually, it sums up your "I need the government to babysit me because I can't make my own decisions" mentality. Partner that with the "I know more than you, but I won't share it " mentality and you've successfully created a non-argument.

Congratulations.

C'mon on back when you feel like bolstering your non position.

Quote:
I agree with this completely. Less government is always better. If a product doesn't meet your needs find one that does.


Quote:
Defend what argument? Did he not post something that was printed in November of last year? Is the info he provided false? Did the FCC not say all those things? Is the legislature really NOT looking into regulating Voip? What does he need to defend? Words that he did not say?

_________________
Javier

Quote:
You obviously don't even understand the discussion. Sorry.

Quote:
Get over it already. Regulation will be here before you know it. Lol

_________________
Javier


Just thought I would save everyone the trouble of repeating themselves AGAIN.
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ToddlerTN
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Posts: 482
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

LOL, that was good, VitaminM. I like ramen noodles too.
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SaltAquatics
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Posts: 126
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Actually correct me if im wrong. But the title of the thread reads and i quote "Today's outage - a case for regulation". Basically asking that if todays outage is a case to regulate Vonage. Thing is, regulation is on its way.

My second point. where have I failed to prove my point? Ive already stated my reasons as to why it SHOULD be regulated. To tell you the truth, i was pro regulation before Toddler put up the posts about the FCC. I didn't even know that at the time. But now that I do... the arguments are great and all, but futile i think. Unless something drastic happens, its going to take place.

Furthermore, I will explain my personal opinion as to why it should be regulated.
1. If it is not regulated, the Voip providers will be able to get away with whatever they want. Yes so they have to answer to their customers (after an hour and a half of holding). But they will still have the large amount of population of people like you who will stick with them anyway, and say "well ill sacrifice service for a nickle".
2. If it is not regulated, this will set the tone for future projects to do the same and get away with not providing good service to the consumer. Before you know it, nothing will be regulated because of the many choices of communications out there and then what? There will be nothing to count on for good service? Yes i paid much more for POTS line, and yes the actual service was great. I too like all who are on Vonage, want to save some money and thats why im here. Even if it was regulated, it wouldnt go up that much more. Regardless of what you think, the service WOULD be much better, and reliable. I used to work for a POTS company and know how they work. This will be a positive win for the Voip industry. As it evolves, the consumer needs to evolve as well or they will be left behind the technology available to them.

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Martlet
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Vonage Forum Master


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Posts: 206
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SaltAquatics wrote:
Actually correct me if im wrong. But the title of the thread reads and i quote "Today's outage - a case for regulation". Basically asking that if todays outage is a case to regulate Vonage. Thing is, regulation is on its way.

My second point. where have I failed to prove my point? Ive already stated my reasons as to why it SHOULD be regulated. To tell you the truth, i was pro regulation before Toddler put up the posts about the FCC. I didn't even know that at the time. But now that I do... the arguments are great and all, but futile i think. Unless something drastic happens, its going to take place.

Furthermore, I will explain my personal opinion as to why it should be regulated.
1. If it is not regulated, the Voip providers will be able to get away with whatever they want. Yes so they have to answer to their customers (after an hour and a half of holding). But they will still have the large amount of population of people like you who will stick with them anyway, and say "well ill sacrifice service for a nickle".
2. If it is not regulated, this will set the tone for future projects to do the same and get away with not providing good service to the consumer. Before you know it, nothing will be regulated because of the many choices of communications out there and then what? There will be nothing to count on for good service? Yes i paid much more for POTS line, and yes the actual service was great. I too like all who are on Vonage, want to save some money and thats why im here. Even if it was regulated, it wouldnt go up that much more. Regardless of what you think, the service WOULD be much better, and reliable. I used to work for a POTS company and know how they work. This will be a positive win for the Voip industry. As it evolves, the consumer needs to evolve as well or they will be left behind the technology available to them.


1. Who cares if Voip carriers get away with bad service? That's what free enterprise is about. If Vonage has bad service, then there will be a market for someone who provides good service. You can then choose which you'd prefer, less money for poor service or more money for better service. You get a choice. With government involvement, you don't.

2. Again, so what? Speak with your dollar. I, for one, don't need a babysitter. I can make decisions for myself. How much more would the service cost with regulation? What would the extra charges be? How much would they be? You say it won't go up much, but you don't KNOW. No one does. Start giving recoups to the bandwidth providers and that alone could put the cost on par with POTS. Additionally, what response and software requirements would they now be required to have? How much of that would be passed on to us?

None of us know how much the extra charges will be. We don't even know what the plan will look like. All we know is the government will now have it's fingers in it, which ultimately means more out of my pocket and possibly less services.
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