Today's outage - a case for regulation

Posts: 336 · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:53 am Post subject:

I can see both sides of the coin. If you are paying for a service, you expect it to be there when you need it, regardless of the price. You would not want to see an advertisement for a 12" pizza that's $3.99, and find out that you actually only get one slice. Then compare that to a place that sells pizza for $15.99 and say, "Well if you don't like only one slice of pizza, you should order from the old fashioned pizza shop." (even though you were told you would get a full pizza for $3.99 originally) People should complain if they are having problems. Otherwise how else is any company supposed to improve? Where would their incentive come from? I think people complaining is better than people who quietly pull out service without saying a word.

Overall, I'm ecstatically happy with Vonage, but yesterday people tried to call me and got the message that my number was not in service. I tried calling myself from work and got this message too. I wonder if anyone tried calling me, got this message and will never call me back? It's not a good recorded message to receive. Vonage advertises business lines, residential lines, and there is nothing on their website that states that people will have any of these problems. Take a look at their website and see for yourself. It all looks wonderful! Also keep in mind that with the POTS system, you also do not have to pay for high speed internet service on top of that, like you do with Vonage. I pay $50 for high speeed internet, plus $39.99 for Vonage. That's a total of $96 with taxes. I consider it cheap though because I would have high speed internet anyway, but some may only have high speed just for Voip. The POTS system has invested billions of dollars in wiring so that every house has its own separate line to the POTS network. Voip companies did not incur any of these enormous expenses, so of course they should be cheaper!

It's easy to say that people should do more investigation before buying, I know I have. I spent 3 months investigating before taking the plunge. Then I tried Vonage for 1 month before getting rid of Bell. During my trial month period with Vonage, there were absolutely no problems. I have not had any real issue with Vonage until yesterday. This is why I'm ecstatically happy with them. I'm sure that after making the software upgrade mistake that happened yesterday, they will find better ways of testing their systems so that this will never happen again. There should really be a parallel small scale network used specifically for software upgrade testing, and the tests should be thorough tests, as well as volume tests.

We'll see what happens, but I don't knock people for complaining. I certainly would not ask them to go back to POTS. Hopefully these people should be intelligent enough to make their own decisions on what type of service they want.

Posts: 206 · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject:

DarKev wrote:

I can see both sides of the coin. If you are paying for a service, you expect it to be there when you need it, regardless of the price. You would not want to see an advertisement for a 12" pizza that's $3.99, and find out that you actually only get one slice. Then compare that to a place that sells pizza for $15.99 and say, "Well if you don't like only one slice of pizza, you should order from the old fashioned pizza shop." (even though you were told you would get a full pizza for $3.99 originally) People should complain if they are having problems. Otherwise how else is any company supposed to improve? Where would their incentive come from? I think people complaining is better than people who quietly pull out service without saying a word.

That would be a valid argument if you got ripped off in the process. However, you don't. When your slice of pizza (Vonage) arrives, you have 2 weeks (sometimes more) to send it back for a full refund. That's even if you didn't take the time to research it in advance.

Posts: 336 · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:20 pm Post subject:

I had Vonage for 10 months before I had any problem. Some people are not so lucky. IE: If you joined last month, and lost service yesterday, the refund is void. Also, they cap your calling too. The guarantee that they offer is actually you must not exceed 250 minutes, and you must return it prior to 14 days. That is not really a lot of talking, nor a lot of time to fully test a phone service, but it is better than nothing.

My point is really that if you are paying for something, you should have service. Vonage is a good deal, but it is a good deal for them too. They have not invested lots of money into their infrastructure that POTS companies have. So arguing that a person should take sucky service because they are paying lower prices is not a good or fair argument. I think Vonage service is great so far, but it definitely does not appear to be 100% reliable at this point in time. I would not choose Vonage as my incoming business line number. I would probably use Vonage in my business, for out-going calls only, to save on long distance charges. It would be used more of a long distance provider than a complete phone service for any business of mine.

Maybe someday it will reach a reliability goal that will blow us all away!

Posts: 126 · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject:

cuzzort wrote:

SaltAquatics wrote:

dconnor wrote:

SaltAquatics wrote:

Well, at the verge of being flamed.... I stand with my opinion... Regulate Vonage.

Please take this kindly, but I believe you are sorely mistaken if you think regulations will fix *your* issues.

"My" issues? As site admin I would think that youve seen the hundreds of posts with issues. Hundreds, ? probably thousands. Especially today, this was no isolated incident. This was in fact a Vonage failure. This im sure is not the first, and wont be the last.

You are making a case for POTS. If you are unhappy with Vonage, or any Voip service, go back to your previous service as I am sure they will be happy to have you as a customer and you will be happy with their service. I and all others are free to make that choice and I choose Vonage.

A case for pots? NO! I am simply stating that I am paying my $25 a month and would like to get what im paying for. Are you saying that since im paying less, that its ok for the quality of their service to not be as good as a POTS line? I think not. They are cheaper because they dont have as much overhead as the POTS Providers do. They dont have as much maintenance to do as the POTS do. Thats why their service is so much cheaper. Not because it should lack in quality, because would you go to a grocery store that had 50% cheaper food because all the packaging was open? I sure wouldn't. And this is not the case here. The service should not be any less. The issues they had yesterday could have been prevented if they had the staffing and/or knowledgeable staff they should have had on hand. But they dont. They are making money hand over fist, and not doing anything with it but investing in whatever they please (everything but Vonage apparantly).

Posts: 78 · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: Interesting

joecitizen wrote:

But don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not for government regulation. I declare that the FCC is completely, utterly inept - and is in fact hurting the public interest these days. I say that as a licensed amateur radio operator, and I really, really mean it.

Lots of us amateurs are early adopters of new technology. But you're right - the FCC is getting into content management instead of bandwidth management which I believe is their rightful function.

Thing is, not only am I a licensed amateur, I also hold my general radiotel license too.

Posts: 78 · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: Verizon Hates Me

Firefly wrote:

My three cents worth - I've had multiple POTS outages over the years, some lasting several days. I've also had at least two cases where my line was "crossed" with someone else's, and my phone would ring when someone else's number was called. It was fun tracking THAT one down....

I've been with Vonage only a few months, but I've been very happy with it, have not noticed any outages, and I am paying only half of what I used to pay while getting more service.

I know the risks, and made the decision as to whether it was worth it. So far, it has been.

Verizon really hated former customers like myself. Whenver I'd get crosstalk or whiny lines, or they'd steal my pairs I'd call them up and berate them. Thing was, I berated them with knowledge of their shoddy practices.

If you ever got to talk to a service rep they'll tell you flat out that the incumbents have NO idea what goes on with their outside plant. The records for some lines date back 50 or more years, many having been lost. I asked him why, when my pair was stolen to provide someone else service they didn't ANAC the line. He explained that they are under such time pressure that even hooking the butt set to the line and dialing the seven digit ANAC number had to be chopped from the procedure.

Posts: 68 · Full Forum Member Joined: Jan 30, 2005 Posts: 68

"Their biggest marketing play is still word of mouth "

Are you on the Vonage pay roll? This must be why they are the ONLY Voip provider I ever see on TV commercials, hear on the radio, and see plastered on bill boards. Clearly they only have word of mouth to go on.

"I think in order to believe regulations would help you would have to believe Vonage doesn’t do everything it can to keep their service up and running"

It's too bad Vonage is not a public company, but if the amount of television commercials and other advertising I see of Vonage is any indication they are banking right now. They have news on Vonage.com of getting over 400,000 customers. That's a lot of cash.

I wonder what would happen if they cut back on the TV commercials (which is probably detrimental to service right now taking on more than they can handle) and use some of that for backup systems so the whole service doesn't get taken out when they do a "software upgrade".

"the only difference is soon its gonna cost the same as a conventional line and nobody will have a real choice based on price. "

Is AT&T regulated? What about Time Warner? Both of these are providing Voip service for FAR LESS than POTS and yet are regulated. Funny how that works, isn't it? In fact, AT&T is a massive $5 more expensive that Vonage, and from what I hear doesn't have service in the whole country go out every other month.

Posts: 12 · Vonage Forum Associate Joined: Mar 04, 2005 Posts: 12

antigravityhero wrote:

Folks, if Vonage were actually a LEC, this outage would result in HUGE FCC penalties.

If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass hopping.

Quote:

As-is, Vonage has absolutely no accountability except to their customers... though the vast number of customer complaints indicates to me there's no accountability ANYWHERE.

Make up your mind, is Vonage accountable or not? Being accountable to your customers is much better than being accountable to any governemnt regulator. If this starts happening too often, customers leave, Vonage looses money and eventually goes out of business. This is the first time this has happened since I have had the service since last summer, and all of a sudden you want to expand the role of the federal government to over see Vonage when no oversight is nessessary. Is government oversight your answer to ever one of life's little problems?

Quote:

And yet, the CEO of Vonage, Jeff Citron, is hard at work petitioning the FCC to keep ISPs from blocking their traffic.

Which is exactly how it should be.

[/quote]I'm tempted to petition the FCC to require Vonage and other Voip providers to provide a minimum degree of service reliability. [/quote]

While you are at it, petition the FCC to require the copper telcos for a minimum degree of service reliability. Don't forget to petition for the broadcast stations for a minimum degree of service reliability. And we can't forget the electric and cable TV utilities. Why don't you petition the commission for a minimum degree of service reliabilty from them, too.

Quote:

I realize the Internet in general cannot be considered "reliable"... however, in cases like today, Vonage is clearly at fault.

Nobody has ever said they were not. From what I read, they were doing a routine service upgrade and something went wrong. It happens to the best of us. Things pop up from time to time that we don't expect. What we should do is learn from the mistakes and move on. Not go crying to the closest federal agency for oversight.

Quote:

Thoughts?

I think you need to get a grip and realize that things fail from time to time. Even with the most strengent federal oversite, crap happens. Computers crash. Deal with it like an adult.

Posts: 482 · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 6:52 pm Post subject:

I'm so tired of the whole "quit complaining or go back to POTS" thing.

You can tell people they're rolling the dice with Voip until you're blue in the face, but that's not the way Vonage markets its business. Although the members of this forum know better, Vonage claims to deliver "the same QoS as customers are used to with POTS" and so it's understandable why customers are signing up in droves now.

But the main thing is that Vonage customers who want to see the service improved have just as much right to their opinion as anyone else. Telling them to go back to POTS is pointless. The idea that you have to accept Vonage service exactly as it is today (and don't dare ask for any improvements) or go back to POTS is assinine. A business wouldn't foster much goodwill among its customers if they responded the way some of you guys do, by telling people to basically "screw off" and get a landline if you don't like global service outages or having callers told that your phone is no longer in service. Plus, a business wouldn't ever improve their service if their customers didn't expect them to. You guys may be the most vocal ones here, for now, but you're about to be outnumbered by people who expect more from Voip as customers become more mainstream.

Now for the regulation debate:

If you believe, as I do, that Voip poses a real threat to traditional POTS service, then let's look a couple years into the future. Imagine if yesterday's issues had affected millions of users or tens of thousands of businesses. The government has an interest in protecting the public as well as preventing the kind of economic loss that an outage of just a couple of hours would have on, for example, 5-10% of the country.

Voip is definitely in its infancy, and now is not the time for regulation. But with Vonage growing and Time Warner, Comcast, Cox, etc. all beginning to bundle Voip services, it won't be long before customers don't view Voip as the "alternative" telephony service anymore, and that "if you don't like it, go back to POTS" argument won't hold water. Mainstream customers won't be so understanding, and the government will not sit idly by if millions of families experience a significantly more troublesome service than POTS or don't have access to E911 services.

Sorry, but I believe regulation is coming, whether we want it or not. The more people start using Voip, the closer we come to government regulation, and I guess you guys who swear you'll never use a regulated carrier again will all be talking over NetMeeting.

Posts: 12 · Vonage Forum Associate Joined: Mar 04, 2005 Posts: 12

SaltAquatics wrote:

Well, at the verge of being flamed.... I stand with my opinion... Regulate Vonage.

I think you should go back to copper if you don't like the risks involved with Vonage. However, do not demand the rest of us be regulated simply because you can't deal with 45 minutes of down time a year.