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ToddlerTN
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Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Nashville, TN

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

rebus wrote:
If you're honest, you will admit you failed to read the TOS until after the fact, because that's the only way you wouldn't have known about the 911 risk in advance. (Hmmm.. that's a little thing we call personal responsibility and accountability for your actions.)

Or are you saying there was a gun to your head, and the guy threatened to pull the trigger if you stopped to read first?

I can't speak for mrkleen, but I personally searched for and read as much information as I could find (at Vonage.com, in these forums, on Google, calling Vonage twice and speaking to two CSRs and a supervisor). I got conflicting information from all three of the Vonage people I talked to and finally just decided the only way I would ever know for sure how it works would be to go ahead and test it for myself (that's a little thing we call personal responsibility). So I called the toll-free number and signed up.

Flash-forward to the day my adapter arrived. Even before I plugged the router in, I went through the 911 registration process. And it was at that point that I was given a seperate TOS for Vonage's 911 service, which, as you should realize, is precisely why you aren't automatically registered for 911 when you signup for Vonage service. If that warning about 911 calls not being answered outside of normal business hours is presented anywhere else on the Vonage website, then I sure couldn't find it. If you are able to, let me know and I'll give you mad props.
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mrkleen
Vonage Forum Associate
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Joined: Mar 03, 2005
Posts: 23
Location: NorthEast

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

REBUS Shut up already go find someone else to harrass, and by the way there was no gun.
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rebus
Vonage Forum Evangelist
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Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 448
Location: Tampa Bay

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ToddlerTN wrote:
I got conflicting information from all three of the Vonage people I talked to and finally just decided the only way I would ever know for sure how it works would be to go ahead and test it for myself (that's a little thing we call personal responsibility). So I called the toll-free number and signed up.

I can't look inside your mind and claim to know exactly what you did (or did not) know prior to signing up, but in all honesty I had no trouble finding the answers at the Vonage website. You don't have to go to Google or the forums. Those are great tools, certainly, but the answers are on the Vonage site, free for the taking.

ToddlerTN wrote:
If that warning about 911 calls not being answered outside of normal business hours is presented anywhere else on the Vonage website, then I sure couldn't find it. If you are able to, let me know and I'll give you mad props.

Okay, I'll accept that challenge. Go to the Vonage home page, http://www.vonage.com and scroll down to the bottom. Click on Terms of Service. Go to section 2 (entitled "EMERGENCY SERVICES- 911 DIALING") about 1/3 of the way down the page. It is painfully explicit about the limitations of 911 service. For sake of brevity, here are some excerpts:

Quote:
You agree to inform any household residents, guests and other third persons who may be present at the physical location where you utilize the Service of the non-availability of traditional 911 or E911 dialing from your Vonage Service and Device(s).

Quote:
You acknowledge and understand that when you dial 911 from your Vonage equipment it is intended that you will be routed to the general telephone number for the PSAP or local emergency service provider (which may not be answered outside business hours), and may not be routed to the 911 dispatcher(s) who are specifically designated to receive incoming 911 calls using traditional 911 dialing.

Quote:
As described herein, this 911-type dialing currently is NOT the same as traditional 911 or E911 dialing, and at this time, does not necessarily include all of the capabilities of traditional 911 dialing.


There are several paragraphs, but if you read through that section in its entirety, there is NO WAY you could come away NOT knowing exactly what you're in for regarding 911 limitations. They say repeatedly that this is not like the 911 service you are used to. It is different. It doesn't not have the same features. You won't speak to a real 911 operator. AND IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to tell everyone in your house, your guests, and anyone else who may use your phone, of the differences in 911 service.

So do I get my mad props now? Very Happy

 


Last edited by rebus on Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rebus
Vonage Forum Evangelist
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Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 448
Location: Tampa Bay

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

mrkleen wrote:
REBUS Shut up already go find someone else to harrass

If it's harrassment to point out that you failed to read the TOS before signing up, then I plead guilty. But don't stick pins in my doll because you didn't do your homework before buying.

mrkleen wrote:
and by the way there was no gun.

I didn't think so.

 
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ToddlerTN
Vonage Forum Evangelist
Vonage Forum Evangelist


Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Nashville, TN

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Here's your mad props for finding that phrase. I definitely missed it.
rebus wrote:
ToddlerTN wrote:
A lot of people have had that experience, signing up for Vonage's 911 and then finding out that Vonage routes them to a non-emergency line or even the wrong number altogether. Search the threads, there are plenty of examples.

Yeah. Those are the people who failed to read the Terms of Service.

The Terms of Service states that Vonage might configure your 911 dialing so that your emergency calls go to the wrong number?
rebus wrote:
ToddlerTN wrote:
Rebus, for example, posted a hearty "WOOHOO!" after asking his state's regulatory authority to get involved in his LNP transfer issues. When their involvement finally made it happen, he was quick to sing the praises of regulation when it was his particular need that got met.

You do like to make assumptions and put words in other people's mouths, don't you? Read my post again. The WooHoo was over the fact it had been completed after more than 3 months of waiting. Using the regulatory agency my hard-earned dollars pay for (taken out of my paycheck, and out of my phone bill, against my will) was... pay attention now... my only recourse, short of hiring an attorney.

No, you had other options, including the ones you left behind. You could have used your new phone number, or you could have gone back to your landline carrier and "put the box back on the shelf" right? You have well over 1000 posts here, you know about LNP issues, you knew the risks--as you are fond of asking, was there someone standing there holding a gun to your head, forcing you to stay with Vonage or to leave your POTS carrier? No, but you wanted what you wanted the way you wanted it...and after appealing to Big Brother for help, you got it..."WOOHOO!!!"
rebus wrote:
Here's another news flash for you, ToddlerTN. I have made the conscious decision-- free will-- my own choice-- to LEAVE the regulated carrier IN FAVOR OF an UNregulated one. If regulation was so important to me, I would still be with Verizon. But it's not. My one and only phone service is Vonage. No POTS. No cell phone. Not even smoke signals in the back yard. Just me, my internet connection, and a Vonage phone adapter. And if service goes to hell in a handbasket, or power goes out, or my ISP has packet loss problems making phone service useless for days at a time, I'm willing to accept the consequences. I'm not going to run home crying to Mommy, I'm not going to be outside stomping my feet, and I sure as hell am NOT going to write a letter to my Congressman begging for Voip industry regulation.

So relax, go take another hit on your bong, and leave me out of your delusions that I somehow favor regulations when they suit me. 

Well you were quick to rely upon them and sing their praises when they helped you keep your phone number. Is keeping your phone number more important than having access to emergency 911 services? Clearly, it is to you. And in your world, not only can't you envision why people might be concerned about an emergency response system that's inaccessible to Voip users, but you belittle the notion of getting involved such as writing to a congressman or the FCC to effect a positive change. You don't give a crap about 911, you don't care if you ever have it or even if anyone else ever has the option, either. And you've made your contempt for the rest of us abundantly clear.

I get your point. All you care about is what's important to you and you alone, end of story.
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mrkleen
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Posts: 23
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

In addition the tech I spoke with said that the lines are manned 24 hours, so they started me ticket based on what the operator told me.

REBUS, you make it sound like we all spent wheel barrows full of money on a long term commitment without reading the fine print, you realize we can cancel anytime for the nominal cost of shipping back the hardware.

You are now arguing over the fact that there is one small line in the TOS that we missed, after you were trying to convince us earlier that we were hit over the head with all the necessary info while we set up the 911 info. I simply thought an important fact like that one should be a little more conspicuous, that is my opinion, get over it.

911 and quality of service are important to me as keeping your phone number was to you.
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rebus
Vonage Forum Evangelist
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Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 448
Location: Tampa Bay

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ToddlerTN wrote:
The Terms of Service states that Vonage might configure your 911 dialing so that your emergency calls go to the wrong number?

No, the TOS does not give them liberty to intentionally mis-route calls, but it does address the issue. You'll note that Vonage clearly states they rely on a third party to setup and route these calls, and that they cannot be held liablie unless gross negligence, recklessness, or intentional misconduct is shown.

So the easy answer is, whenever you activate 911, test it. Not next week, not next month, not when Uncle Fred collapses from a heart attack, but as soon as you get the email from Vonage saying it's active. First thing I did when I got the activation confirmation was dial 911. I told the operator answering that this was not an emergency call, that I was testing 911 service that was setup on a new voice over IP line, then proceeded to ask what department I got and what their hours of operation were. In less than 60 seconds, I verified 911 was correctly routed, that it went to local fire rescue (fire, paramedics/ambulance), that they had the ability to forward my call to law enforcement, and that they answer 24x7.

rebus wrote:
No, you had other options, including the ones you left behind. You could have used your new phone number, or you could have gone back to your landline carrier and "put the box back on the shelf" right?

Ummmm..... you're overlooking one key issue. Laws already on the books say I have the right to take my number with me. I exercised that right, using specific channels established by law, for the explicit purpose of utility disputes, to force the carrier to do what it was legally obligated to do. Through taxes and mandatory surcharges levied against my phone bill, I HAD ALREADY PRE-PAID FOR THAT SERVICE many times over, over the course of decades of phone service. So I used what I paid for.

HOWEVER(!!!), if there was no such number portability law, I would NOT have complained because there would have been no legal foundation for doing so. I would have either accepted a new number, or put Vonage back on the shelf. I would not have screamed and complained because my number was not portable.

My sister is in an area of non-portability. She wants Vonage, but knows she will give up her local number unless she keeps POTS. So guess what? She has elected not to buy Vonage right now.... and no, she is not complaining. She's not even upset-- just a little disappointed-- but who ever said life was fair?

I understand your desire to have such 911 regulation, but unlike number portability, there is no 911 law in place to address this specific issue. Therefore, please stop complaining that Voip does not offer (what you consider to be) an adequate 911 facility.

If you don't like the game, don't play.


rebus wrote:
You have well over 1000 posts here,

I do? I think you have me confused with the great and mighty reebok.

rebus wrote:
you know about LNP issues, you knew the risks... but you wanted what you wanted the way you wanted it...and after appealing to Big Brother for help, you got it..."WOOHOO!!!"

Sigh.... okay, here it is one more time. I used it because that was the remedy established by law. HOWEVER(!!) if no such remedy existed, I would have accepted that fact and moved on with my life. If no such portability laws existed, I would NOT have been here in this wonderful forum complaining that I could not move my number.

But that is exactly what you're doing with 911 service. Vonage spells out very clearly what you will (and will not) get. You were the one who failed to read the full TOS, even though it's available and accessible from just about every page on the website. Now you're here complaining about what you got. Sorry, I see your point and share your desire for better 911, but in the context of you getting an unexpected, unpleasant "surprise", I have no sympathy.

ToddlerTN wrote:

I get your point. All you care about is what's important to you and you alone, end of story.

Negative. I care about 911 service. I WANT E-911 and am looking forward to it. But I knew what Vonage offered before I signed up (because I read the TOS before making the committment) and was willing to accept it.

If you search my other posts, you'll see I'm a big advocate of E-911. But I also said I find the current 911 alternative acceptable. Not great, but acceptable.

If you don't like it, don't play. You can't be an early adopter of emerging technology and expect it to have everything that the mature, 100 year old, public switched telephone network offers.

 
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mrkleen
Vonage Forum Associate
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Joined: Mar 03, 2005
Posts: 23
Location: NorthEast

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

rebus wrote:
Negative. I care about 911 service. I WANT E-911 and am looking forward to it. But I knew what Vonage offered before I signed up (because I read the TOS before making the committment) and was willing to accept it.


Good for you, And what is this commitment you keep refering to? If I felt so strongly about this I would simply cancel it as I am sure most anyone would. There is no commitment.

I just dont like the fact that they offer an emergency service that may not be answered. It could potentially be a waste of valuable time. This information should also be on the page where you sign up for 911, not on a link from that page buried in a sea of text. Again, my opinion.

Knowing this I will not use 911 through Vonage until they have it set up correctly, but I still reserve the right to complain about it until they get it right. You won't see me contacting my congressman to complain about an unregulated service. So, just back off already.

I can also guarantee Vonage does not share your sentiment in saying "If you dont like it, don't play","put it back on the shelf and walk away","No one held a gun to your head","If you dont like it stick with POTS".

If they were to keep telling people this as you do the company probably would not exist as it does today.

They are working on these problems based on input from customers like us.

If you are so sick of people complaining, then stay off the board, no one is holding a gun to you head making you read this forum.
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AirJunky
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Full Forum Member


Joined: Jun 17, 2004
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

mrkleen wrote:
I just dont like the fact that they offer an emergency service that may not be answered. It could potentially be a waste of valuable time.


Remember, that problem is in your area. Not in mine & not in many if not most other Vonage areas. And since we are all specialists in how Voip is setup, we have no way of knowing if this is due to Vonage or some local situation. Maybe asking the 911 folks in your own area would tell you why it is that Vonage sent your calls the way they did.
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mrkleen
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Posts: 23
Location: NorthEast

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I see what you are saying, but right in the Terms of service, it states that it may only be available during business hours, so they are aware that this could be an issue.

But like I said, I will just plan on using my cell phone if it becomes necessary to call for emergency service, my cell has built in Emergency location tracking capabilities, so it is probably better even my PSAP did answer 24/7.
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