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jjatsk Posted:
We are renting a
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Pman Posted:
Hello, While
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jbugz67 Posted:
We recently
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RichardPi Posted:
Hello, does
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how to get into
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On Mar 31, 2016 at 02:39:07

RichardPi Posted:
Hello, does
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On Mar 30, 2016 at 18:48:05

achow26 Posted:
BrettaMan, I am
having the same
problem. I do not
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On Feb 16, 2016 at 14:13:37

alicesmith Posted:
I have used the
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I was very
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eye8urcake
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Poor VOIP Quality and Application Drops on 802.11g WISP Reply with quote Back to top

Background -

I've torn through every forum post I could using every combination of search terms I could think of that applied to my situation to no avail. I've run the tests (and bookmarked them) on my connection but as my problem intermittent even when they DO work I am unsure of whether they apply or not, and of course, my Internet provider insists it cannot POSSIBLY be THEIR equipment, it MUST be my computer, which has now been disproved by my acquisition of a brand-new laptop which these problems still happen on.

Problems -

I live in rural Northeastern Nevada, where only two choices for broadband Internet access are available. I had WildBlue Satellite service for about 18 months and was ridiculously unhappy with it, and when we purchased our own property here and moved onto it, I cancelled the service and switched to the relatively new WISP provider.

The first thing I did upon connecting to the Internet with this provider was order Vonage service. My V-Portal arrived, and I plugged it directly into the Internet, with no secondary router in front of or behind it.

I have experienced problems in applications maintaining their connections, with frequent intermittent drops in messaging applications like Live Messenger, telnet-type applications like ZMUD and CMUD (I'm an old school mud player), in gaming applications like World of Warcraft, and failures of downloads.

I have a friend who is a network guy for an assisted living facility who has tried to help me trace the problems to no avail. He had me run constant ping loops from the command prompt while running some and/or all of these programs and there would be many times when there was no noticeable increase in latency and no packet loss by the ping report, but these applications would drop. Also, we noticed that while sometimes everything would drop concurrently, often one would drop out, then a little bit later the other, and sometimes one would drop out but NEVER the other. Finally, the symptom is very inconsistent - I have been able to maintain connections on one or more of these applications for 3-4 hours solid, most often, I believe, in the wee hours of the morning. Additionally, my Voip quality has been poor since the get go, and as I have had Vonage prior to moving out to the sticks on a wonderful cable connection and had it work with crystal clear quality even during high usage hours while using it to do a million other online things, I am quite sure that it is something local or ISP based.

Since the ISP has been less than helpful, I have tried to obtain more information to assure myself that something in my network setup or connection settings is the problem - mainly, discussing the Internet performance of other clients of my WISP provider. While at one point quite a few people were having problems, which the provider blamed on a cluster of localized power outages that had happened around that time, none of them (whether they had their hardware serviced, replaced, or done nothing) experience the symptoms I am suffering. Plus, the laptop I am connected with now and writing this with was bought yesterday, and as such, has not been subject to the phenomena.

I purchased a Netgear wireless router with the laptop, so that I could make use of the laptop's wireless capabilities. Something interesting that I learned when I got my network up, secured, and running, is that I have bleed from neighbors of their unsecured 802.11n network. I wonder if somehow this could be causing the problem?

I can and will re-run the Voip test in this forum and paste the results upon request, but the testyourvoip.com tests do not work for me. I am told my SIP port 5060 and 600 are unavailable. I have disabled my firewall and have no applications running at the time I run the tests. I cannot telephone Vonage for their support as I do not have a landline and the quality of the voice connection is so poor as to interfere with my ability to communicate and understand those trying to communicate with me.

Suggestions would be appreciated, and while I'm no network specialist I know my way around my computer well enough to follow directions and report on results or lack thereoff coherently.

Thanks in advance,
Michelle
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VonTechMgr
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

On thing you need to keep in the back of your mind is that you are on a wireless connection between your LAN and your ISP's wireless receiver.

With that said, a simple ping test may not prove useful since your only sending a single ICMP packet out every second. You are also probably using the default packet size of 32 bytes.

With any real time application, especially with UDP protocol, the packets could anywhere from 6 times as large or more plus there are many packets sent per second. A simple ICMP ping cannot reproduce the same result as a 50 UDP packet per second RTP stream. You could be dropping numerous packets each second. This could be happening between the 2 wireless endpoints or on your providers network. I would say it's the wireless connectivity since your also dropping other applications.

Where are these pings being run to? What is the max RTT? Have you run Pings and traceroutes to the media servers or application servers that Windows Messenger connects with? How about do the same to Vonage's media servers? You always have to test to the actual endpoint servers the application that gives you a problem is using. BGP Routes could be very different to these then to things that work well.

Do you have a wireless antenna on your roof? Make sure it is in the best possible location. Do you also have a modem like adapter that connects to the wireless antenna that can tell you your signal level to your ISP? Some wireless ISP's do have this and the connection must maintain at least an 80% signal ratio or better for Vonage to even work halfway decent.
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eye8urcake
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for responding so quickly. Below find my answers to your questions and requests for further information...


The pings were being run to google.com at the suggestion of the network guy. After roughly 20 minutes of running this ping loop thing, my maximum RT is 263ms.

I don't know what addresses to use to ping or traceroutes to the servers you mentioned - how can I get this information? I don't know how to do a traceroute so if you provide the steps and addresses I will do so and post the result.

Oh, once when I lost the connection and Messenger was slow in reconnecting I ran their connection diagnosis tool. It was able to satisfy all requirements except 'Key Ports', and when I clicked the other tool to check MY connectivity, it told me I was connected to the Internet and able to connect to the Messenger service, which was untrue. Perhaps this is another symptom, I don't know.

The wireless antenna is mounted on my roof, yes, and my husband actually said he thought perhaps it had been moved or cats had interfered with it or something similar. I have been considering whether or not it would be beneficial to change the mounting setup and sink a 4"x4" post into the ground JUST for the thing, as we did for the WildBlue dish. What would your advice be?

The thing I have from the ISP is just a teeny white plastic doohickey with a power plug outlet, and ethernet connectors to the antenna receiver and to my network (router, NIC, etc). I hate that I cannot access this like I can the V-Portal and my routers to see what's going on inside it.

If it IS my connectivity, why would these losses occur in the applications but not concurrently, or cause losses in something like my web browser when it's going at the same time? Also, would this show up in the wireless signal meter in the computer, or is that just an acknowledgement that the wireless ROUTER itself is putting out information, and not an indication of internet connectivity as well?

Also, when I lose everything, even to the point of hanging up on sites loading in my browser and all connected applications dropping at once, my connection monitor thinks the computer IS on the internet. Once I completely lost service and the V-Portal was on the ball, because it was telling me on the display, but the computer thought I was on the internet.


Thank you again for answering so quickly, this is so annoying. When it works, it works so well and when it doesn't work the drop/reconnect is a serious annoyance. Coupled with the degrading effect it has on a service I know to be worthwhile such as Vonage telephony, I am at my wit's end.

Michelle
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VonTechMgr
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
If it IS my connectivity, why would these losses occur in the applications but not concurrently, or cause losses in something like my web browser when it's going at the same time? Also, would this show up in the wireless signal meter in the computer, or is that just an acknowledgement that the wireless ROUTER itself is putting out information, and not an indication of internet connectivity as well?

Also, when I lose everything, even to the point of hanging up on sites loading in my browser and all connected applications dropping at once, my connection monitor thinks the computer IS on the internet. Once I completely lost service and the V-Portal was on the ball, because it was telling me on the display, but the computer thought I was on the internet.


If I understand correctly, your looking at your Wireless connection icon in your system tray. This only displays the wireless connection between your Laptop's wireless card and the wireless router. This is local area connectivity. This indicator has nothing to do with your wireless antenna on your roof. You also mention connection monitor. If this is the normal Microsoft connection icon, it will have you as connected since it only monitors connection between your local adapter and an endpoint such as a router. This also would have nothing to do with your actual internet connection.

Unless you have some special software that monitors the wireless connection of the antenna on the roof, all network indicators on your PC is for LAN / WLAN connectivity only.

You also ask about other applications such as the web browser. Well web traffic is http which operates using TCP protocol. If a packet is not Acknowledged, there are packet retransmissions. So with lost packets, you may notice the browser to be sluggish yet it will still work. With a real time application like Vonage, it is all UDP protocol. Any packets lost are not resent. This is where you get choppy audio and could lose SIP registration causing your device to be offline.

Quote:
The wireless antenna is mounted on my roof, yes, and my husband actually said he thought perhaps it had been moved or cats had interfered with it or something similar. I have been considering whether or not it would be beneficial to change the mounting setup and sink a 4"x4" post into the ground JUST for the thing, as we did for the WildBlue dish. What would your advice be?


If your unsure of your antenna, then that can be the issue right there. It could be in a bad spot where you are not receiving the best possible connection. You may even have periodic interference from something in the environment. Without having a way to measure the signal strength of the antenna during good connectivity vs bad connectivity is a problem. Not much I can help you with on that part.

Quote:
The pings were being run to google.com at the suggestion of the network guy. After roughly 20 minutes of running this ping loop thing, my maximum RT is 263ms.


During the time you ran the pings to google.com, did your application quit working and did Vonage lose connectivity? If not, then you would not see anything. If you did experience a lost internet scenario, when stopping the ping, you should have shown a period of significant packet loss.

If you run:

ping -t -l 250 www.google.com (that's a lower case L)

This will run a constant ping with a 250 byte size packet.

After running it for 1/2 hour or so, upon stopping it, your results should look like this if the connection physically stays up:

Ping statistics for 64.233.169.99:
Packets: Sent = 1800, Received = 1800, Lost = 0 (0% loss)
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 18ms, Maximum = 29ms, Average = 21ms

If it looks like this, your losing complete internet connectivity:

Ping statistics for 64.233.169.99:
Packets: Sent = 1800, Received = 900, Lost = 900 (50% loss)
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 100ms, Maximum = 300ms, Average = 200ms


As for running pings and traceroutes to the actual application and media servers for Vonage and other services, that may not be needed if you can already show that your internet connection is dropping between your antenna and ISP.
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eye8urcake
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Okay, I understand you, and yes, I did mean the Microsoft Windows based applications to monitor those things. If there is something else i can use to track the antenna's connection I'd love to get at it, even if I have to buy a tool and climb up on the damned roof myself. I had nothing to do with the installation, but the installer believed it was all good to go. I am also considering getting a larger presence point installed instead, one of the 'towers' so to speak that he puts up that are higher and are the point at which the other subscribers need to have a clear shot at. Is that something that would change my connectivity issues, assuming that is what's wrong?

My neighbor's bleeding unsecured network won't cause me issues? Can you explain why, just because I don't get it, I would assume if I'm wireless and they're wireless that we'd be fighting each other, but I know that would be an oversimplification at best. I hope you don't mind all the questions, I like to actually learn something from my issues.


Regarding the ping sessions, the applications DID drop out multiple times in the sessions, but I have never lost complete Vonage connection except the one time the entire Internet connection disappeared for around a half an hour. The first one I did, when everything was REALLY bad, did have some loss, but around 1%. Whilte I get varying latency rates, it was never anything above 100-200.


Thanks so much, this is very enlightening.

Michelle
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VonTechMgr
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Okay, I understand you, and yes, I did mean the Microsoft Windows based applications to monitor those things. If there is something else i can use to track the antenna's connection I'd love to get at it, even if I have to buy a tool and climb up on the damned roof myself. I had nothing to do with the installation, but the installer believed it was all good to go. I am also considering getting a larger presence point installed instead, one of the 'towers' so to speak that he puts up that are higher and are the point at which the other subscribers need to have a clear shot at. Is that something that would change my connectivity issues, assuming that is what's wrong?


Not really an expert in this exact area but common sense tells me that if they make an antenna that can achieve a better line of sight to the ISP, it would fix the issue assuming that this is your root cause.


Quote:
My neighbor's bleeding unsecured network won't cause me issues? Can you explain why, just because I don't get it, I would assume if I'm wireless and they're wireless that we'd be fighting each other, but I know that would be an oversimplification at best. I hope you don't mind all the questions, I like to actually learn something from my issues.


Again, not an expert with Wireless ISP technology but I highly doubt that an unsecure or any other wireless router would interfere with the physical wireless connection to your ISP. That would be a very poor design in technology if it did. It most likely operates on a completely separate frequency then that of the 802.11b/g routers.

Quote:
Regarding the ping sessions, the applications DID drop out multiple times in the sessions, but I have never lost complete Vonage connection except the one time the entire Internet connection disappeared for around a half an hour. The first one I did, when everything was REALLY bad, did have some loss, but around 1%. Whilte I get varying latency rates, it was never anything above 100-200.


1% packet loss could not cause you any visible problems with any of these applications. So if that is what you got the last time, I would run it again and run it longer. Maybe 1 hour. During the time you run the ping that I showed in the previous reply, take note to your Vonage LCD screen. Make some phone calls. Use Messenger and any other applications that has been having problems. That is the only way to know whether or not the ping can correlate to anything happening during the time your using these services.
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eye8urcake
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the answers again. This kind of technology makes my brain hurt Very Happy

Will be running that test for a good long time and will be back much later to report the results. I'm going to call the guy and see the costs to get the better presence point installed too - I found one client who got her service free in return for providing him one on her property, allowing service to this end of our rinky dink town, so perhaps that is both the answer to the question and the solution to the problem.



Take care,
Michelle
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eye8urcake
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Okay, after an hour of doing the ping as you suggested, below are the results, and below that some observations:

Ping statistics for 209.85.171.100:
Packets: Sent = 5030, Received = 5029, Lost = 1 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 71ms, Maximum = 2074ms, Average = 100ms

Nothing wrong on the V-Portal front. Ever. <3 my V-Portal, hehe


I kept CMUD, Live Messenger, and a window actively browsing the Internet (i was searching for some kind of signal meter hardware). I noticed that when I'd change pages or click links in the browser, many times I would lose connection to CMUD and Messenger. I could always instantly reconnect which is exactly the ongoing problem.

More than once I lost connection to the CMUD and Messenger programs without doing anything of note.

Phone call was a bit broken up but doable.


Michelle
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VonTechMgr
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Not much I can tell you since your connection seems to be stable. The only thing that stands out is your max RTT is over 2 full seconds. This means you will have high jitter present and is why your calls may get choppy at time. I really do not have an answer for you as to why your sessions disconnect and then can reconnect seconds later.
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eye8urcake
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Would something port related account for this, perhaps? It seems like sometimes these programs 'fight' each other for the Internet and knock each other off but I don't really know how to check.


Thanks for all you tried to do. I really appreciate it.


Michelle
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