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AirJunky
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry I brought it up. I didn't realize Vonage was dedicating resources to your E911 project to satisfy the Wifi phone project. I'm a 12 yr network engineer too. And not to downplay the importance but in 40 yrs of using the phone, I've only called 911 one time, and I was able to give my address at that time. Plus my cell has a GPS in it. The other issues are something that would effect my life on a daily basis.
But I digress...... Vonage, please dedicate your resources elsewhere.
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dconnor
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:42 am    Post subject: Vonage To Sell Wi-Fi Phones Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting article in todays NYT:
http://www.vonage-forum.com/article1666.html

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plyons
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Voip over WIFI (especially someone else's WIFI! Smile) would be really cool. Yep. Really cool. Useful? Not so much. But really cool.

Why not so useful? Most of us already have cell phone and tons of minutes to use on those phones. They are already so cheap to use that I'm just not at all likely to carry another (probably larger) device to use when I happen to be in a WIFI hotspot. Just not worth it.

A combo phone might be worth it, but that's not what Vonage is developing at this point.
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scerruti
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: FREE Cellular with Vonage UTStarcom Portabable WI-FI Han Reply with quote Back to top

dconnor wrote:
So I am thinking, could Vonage become (or already is) a cellular service on a free frequency? hmm. Smile


I have thought some about this and here is why I am not holding my breath for WiFi phones.

1) Technically when you use someone else's access point without permission then you are breaking the law. This could become an issue if the ISPs start getting annoyed with unsecured access points.

2) Connecting to someone elses unsecured access point is as dangerous as leaving your access point open. You are subject to snooping and man in the middle attacks. The open access point could be a honey trap just looking to test your devices security looking to install malevolent software. In the case of WiFi phones it may very well be possible to steal your password and cause you at a minimum inconvenience and at worst run up large bills.

3) Legitimate free WiFi sites often require approving terms of conditions before routing your traffic (Panera is an example). Unless your WiFi phone has a built in web browser you won't be able to get it to work.

However, once WiMax becomes a reality and you can buy a subscription then low cost mobile telephony will make cell phones look like POTS.

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dconnor
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: FREE Cellular with Vonage UTStarcom Portabable WI-FI Han Reply with quote Back to top

scerruti wrote:

1) Technically when you use someone else's access point without permission then you are breaking the law.


I do not mean to challenge you, I would like to view the law or some ruling case documents.

Do you have a link?

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Last edited by dconnor on Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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scerruti
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

This is a famous case of a Priest being chased off from outside a closed library to prevent him from accessing a wireless access point that is available for use inside the library when the library is open.

http://akma.disseminary.org/archives/001518.html

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tysonfamnc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah I am waiting for one my husband's soldier's wife to call me to help her set up her laptop to her wireless and I will make it a point to secure her wireless. Ours is closed off to intruders and I see in my log that some have even scanned to my base station to attempt to log into our network. Guess some people just do not know there is more to plug and play...secure is must.

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wifon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: WiFi Telephony Reply with quote Back to top

Of the 6100 exhibitors at CeBIT this year in Hannover, Germany I spoke with 8 or 10 companies working on dual-mode wifi/cellular phones. The UTStarcom wifi phone was being shown around and looked very nice.

The biggest technical hurdle for high-volume wifi phone deployment is still the chipset/DSP/wifi-radio integration. It is an ongoing development at the moment which will solve the power consumption issues and bring MPEG processing on board.

With these improvements, the dual-mode wifi phone will offer more robust features, but with a price. The standard wifi-only handset is still hovering around US$200, however several manufacturers at CeBIT were promoting a $150 phone with very nice firmware. The camera option added about $100, and provided very nice SIP/Video calling.

The coolest product launched at CeBIT (aside from the $20 cigarette lighter MP3 players) was the WiFi SIP/Video Phone. It is a full-featured open standards IP/PBX desk phone with integrated camera and 7-inch touch-sensitive flat panel display.

-- Mirian
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scerruti
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: FREE Cellular with Vonage UTStarcom Portabable WI-FI Han Reply with quote Back to top

dconnor wrote:
scerruti wrote:

1) Technically when you use someone else's access point without permission then you are breaking the law.


I do not mean to challenge you, I would like to view the law or some ruling case documents.

Do you have a link?


I know this conversation sort of died out, but I was reminded of it by a NYT article on problems with open access points and found a very thorough paper on the ethics and legalities of wardriving and related activities. The author of this paper is arguing that mapping open access points is not in itself illegal but that further related actions may be.

This paper quoted an FBI memorandum:
Patrick S. Ryan (Summer 2004) wrote:
To date, there are no published cases that squarely address the topic. However, this lack of concrete data has not dissuaded government officials from issuing memoranda and trying cases that are (at least tangentially) related to wardriving. In 2002, for example, the FBI issued an unofficial (but highly publicized) memorandum suggesting that some elements of wardriving may not be illegal (e.g., the mere identification of sites), while at the same time providing a warning about collateral activities:
FBI Memorandum wrote:
Identifying the presence of a wireless network may not be a criminal violation, however, there may be criminal violations if the network is actually accessed including theft of services, interception of communications, misuse of computing resources, up to and including violations of the Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Statute, Theft of Trade Secrets, and other federal violations.
The FBI memorandum is not law. However, when wardriving-related cases are tried (and it is likely that such cases will arise), an understanding of the government’s position will be critical. It will be important to review and understand the government’s position, the statutes that have been passed, and the relevant case law regarding matters of computer access. Moreover, the FBI memorandum departs somewhat from FCC Chairman Powell’s “guiding principles for the industry,” which encourage users to attach (presumably open-access) devices to their networks.


In another section of the paper the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act is discussed. The CFAA applies only to protected computer systems so does not directly apply to open access points. No wireless cases had been tried under the CFAA at the time of the paper. However the article mentions that in other situations the CFAA has been made to apply by judges when they found that the unauthorized access violated the service owners terms of service.

Some cases cited in the paper:

"Puffer was indicted on two counts of fraud for wrongfully accessing the Harris County District Clerk’s unprotected wireless network. At trial, the jury acquitted Puffer after deliberating for a mere fifteen minutes."

"According to an affidavit filed by an FBI investigator, the men accessed the Lowe’s Wi-Fi network at a store in Southfield, Michigan, and used the store’s network to access the company’s central data center at its North Carolina headquarters. As of June 2004, the case is ongoing, and the only information available is that reported in the press."

"Legislators in New Hampshire have introduced a bill that would elucidate rules and regulations that affect the legality of wardriving. House Bill 495 would absolve users of liability when they inadvertently access networks that are left unsecured by their owners. Some commentators believe that this bill, if passed, will have no effect since it duplicates existing legislation."

The NYT article also referred to a case that is being prosecuted in Canada where a man was arrested under their "theft of communication" law for downloading child porn via an open access point.

In conclusion

a) my original comment would have been more correct had I said, "In my opinion, and in the opinion of the FBI, ... ".

b) In Canada laws have been specifically written that outlaw connecting to and using open access points.

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dconnor
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

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