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ed56
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Arthur_lw wrote:
ed56 wrote:
"Just some random thoughts here. Not sure what may apply.
Is DHCP disabled in the Linksys? I assume the Vonage device is supplying same... Otherwise you got two chiefs and no indians here. "

Only if they are on the same subnet.

On mine everything is. I could have set the Linksys up as a separate DHCP device and gained an extra port, but things didn't seem to work as well.

You can put the Vonage ATA before or after a router. However, if after, you lose the built in QOS for the phone. May not be a problem, may be.

No way to put a D-Link VTA ahead of a router, unless they have two different models that is. Mine has no Internet out jack. It is designed to be fed from an Ethernet port on a router only. They HAD BETTER be able to adjust QOS from there, cuz that's the only place it CAN get fed from. And if they can adjust my D-Link's QOS behind a router why should it be so hard to do it with some other device?


Some ATA's like the Dlink are set up like yours but most that I have seen are combined with wireless and ethernet out ports or just ethernet out ports. They are NAT routers as well as an ATA.

If behind a router, a number of people set QOS (if their routers support it) to prioritize SIP and or the ports Vonage uses.

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Arthur_lw
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ed56 wrote:
If behind a router, a number of people set QOS (if their routers support it) to prioritize SIP and or the ports Vonage uses.

Yeah, the Actiontec has DMZ and QOS setting cabability as well. Also a big hand saying STOP! Don't mess with these settings unless told to do so by your ISP. Shame on you LOL

And this brings me to a question that has been sitting in the back of my mind for some time. How does one actually measure one's Voip device's QOS? How do I know if I even need to fool with DMZ and QOS in my router? All these test sites seem to be simulating a call using the computer, not the Voip device. Presumably if your puter is sitting behind a router or router and switch combo and the test can generate a 4.2 or 4.4 MOS and QOS of say, 98% with low ping then do we assume that the device plugged in at the same termination point as the puter can do the same?

But how do you go inside your call device and generate a test call? Or do you? Do you just do your testing and if you get good readings off the puter say that's good enough and then if you have call problems with the good test readings it must be your device going bad?

And if the call device is fed from the same place as the puter that did its simulation work and the puter could get good test readings but the call device won't work as well, then why would I want to trust something that rinky-dink to have the bandwidth and technology and all the rest to be in front of everything and be my gateway to the 'net? ( Hope I explained myself coherently this time.)

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ed56
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

First thing, QOS packet prioritizatin supports only upload (in most out of the box cases). Most people (home users) simply observe that certain applications or events do or may affect their phone service and make QOS setting changes to handle it. Examples are torrents and World of Warcraft. An ATA combined with a NAT router many times has already set prioritization to the voice traffic, so one can be resonably sure those packets will be prioritized.

Some on this board like a frimware called "Tomato" that provides QOS settings and versatility for the Linksys' WRT54G/GL/GS.

Probably the best solution but overkill is a software router running on a Linux or Windows box. These can provide load balancing between multiple ISP's (15 or more), Flexible QOS algorithms, a rule based firewall and are very customizeable.

Cisco commercial grade routers can also do a lot, but also overkill for home use.

Lastly, there is work in examining integrated (perflow) and differentiated (qualitative) QOS schemes that meld with the application to ensure QOS. This is more in the future than today.

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Arthur_lw
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ed56 wrote:
Examples are torrents and World of Warcraft. An ATA combined with a NAT router many times has already set prioritization to the voice traffic, so one can be resonably sure those packets will be prioritized.

And by some strange coincidence I seem to remember tromping in the gateway's control panel and coming upon some mention of a bunch of games, and ports maybe and whatnot. It was all grayed out but I'll bet if you install one of those games it will be sensed by the gateway and the way will be open for it to function at max.

But I still need an answer to my questions please. Somebody? Anybody? None of the above even touched on them. <sigh>

In short, if my puter can get scores of 4.2 MOS, 98%, Jitter 2%, ping 7ms, and all the etcs. on a Voip test, then a Voip device sitting next to it and fed from the same Ethernet jack (or the one next to it) should be able to show the same performance, right?

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ed56
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

"In short, if my puter can get scores of 4.2 MOS, 98%, Jitter 2%, ping 7ms, and all the etcs. on a Voip test, then a Voip device sitting next to it and fed from the same Ethernet jack (or the one next to it) should be able to show the same performance, right?"

Yes, but only if the one next to it is no hogging the bandwidth. That is what QOS does, it does not allow the one next to it to hog bandwidth from higher priority traffic. So if the ATA is next to it, it does not get priotitized except by the router it is connected to IF you have QOS enabled on the router, and the priorities set.

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ed56
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Arthur_lw wrote:
And by some strange coincidence I seem to remember tromping in the gateway's control panel and coming upon some mention of a bunch of games, and ports maybe and whatnot. It was all grayed out but I'll bet if you install one of those games it will be sensed by the gateway and the way will be open for it to function at max.


This sounds like your port forwarding screen that opens ports for certain applications, services and of course games. If the ports are closed they wil not work.

By design, a NAT Router/firewall will have most ports closed. I would seriously doubt that it would open ports on an adhoc basis, as this defeats the security a router/firewall provides.

Sounds like your ISP has closed and locked these ports, since they ar greyed out.

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Arthur_lw
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ed56 wrote:
Sounds like your ISP has closed and locked these ports, since they ar greyed out.

Sorry. Perhaps I misspoke. Grayed out due to no configuration, but the ability to open them is there for the folks who would dare to try. LOL

My guess however is that no special tweaking is necessary by the owner and those games are listed there in the gateway's memory so that if and when you install one the device can recognize your game as a legitimate application as opposed to a trojan or something and let you get out on the 'net with it.

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Arthur_lw
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ed56 wrote:
"In short, if my puter can get scores of 4.2 MOS, 98%, Jitter 2%, ping 7ms, and all the etcs. on a Voip test, then a Voip device sitting next to it and fed from the same Ethernet jack (or the one next to it) should be able to show the same performance, right?"

Yes, but only if the one next to it is no hogging the bandwidth. That is what QOS does, it does not allow the one next to it to hog bandwidth from higher priority traffic. So if the ATA is next to it, it does not get priotitized except by the router it is connected to IF you have QOS enabled on the router, and the priorities set.

Well, I have not had any problems with making calls, so either my gateway knows to prioritize Voip traffic by itself or that adjustment you make with the slider in your Vonage account did the trick. I would hope it is the latter.

Well, there is a third possibility... that I never got that far into my available bandwidth to choke off my Vonage device. Maybe that is the crux of the matter. When you try to do this with not a lot of bandwidth to play with you need to locate the device ahead of everything. Still though, if that slider in my account is real and actually works then Vonage has the capability to talk to my router and adjust its QOS for me. From there it is up to me to get with my ISP and see to it that I have enough room to make quality calls, right?

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whirlwind
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well you guys lost me there for a little while with the QOS etc... But
I did understand the upshot, why is the v-portal the first thing in line?????

A light goes off in my head, that since I have installed the Voip box, downloads seem to be a bit slower

Did a real quick test. downloaded a large file with the box in the way and on the other side of the router.
70k download rate turns in 600k wow, not a very scientific experiment but so big and so obvious.

I now have the V-portal plugged into my Linksys router and the phone seems to work fine. I even called the local traffic number to listen to a recording while downloading some big files. No issues.

I guess one tribute to the V-portal box is I didn't have to do anything special with my router to get it to work in this config.

My less than scientific summary. To absolutely guarantee good phone quality on marginal internet connection Vonage has decided to insist that their box goes first. Most of the time this is probably not necessary and actually a detriment to performance of the other home network components.

Just my two and a half cents worth.
If I have any trouble with this arrangement I am sure to be back on this forum, because I bet my first phone call to Vonage will be put the V-portal directly connected to the modem!!!
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Arthur_lw
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

whirlwind wrote:

70k download rate turns in 600k wow, not a very scientific experiment but so big and so obvious.!!!

Scientifical enough for me. Eek

And just as I suspected all along. Give that boy the grand prize and refund his 2.5˘ to boot !!!

(Get it? Boot? LOL I kill myself.) Razz

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