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roscopco
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 1326

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

You are correct I don't have kids, but what kind of numbers are people using each month? I called Vonage and I was told there was no limit, but I am sure there has to be some kind of limits.

In 12 days it says I have used 450 minutes, and usually use about 1200 a month, I will have to go back and check out my useage.
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rebus
Vonage Forum Evangelist
Vonage Forum Evangelist


Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 448
Location: Tampa Bay

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Steve48 wrote:
I don't think the actual number of minutes is the point here. If Vonage advertises the time as being unlimited, then it should be unlimited.

BINGO!! I'm a person who operates on principle, and I find it repugnant a company can legally advertise "Unlimited" service when they have no intention of delivering it.

Since I mentioned principle, at the risk of drifting off topic here, I said in another thread I would vote with my wallet after Vonage spammed my friends and family, in my name without asking first. Yesterday I signed up for a competitor's (..ahem..) service to see how good they are. If they are a smoothe ride, Vonage will receive my vote in the form of a phone call to the cancellation dept.
 
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rebus
Vonage Forum Evangelist
Vonage Forum Evangelist


Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 448
Location: Tampa Bay

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

roscopco wrote:
You are correct I don't have kids, but what kind of numbers are people using each month? I called Vonage and I was told there was no limit, but I am sure there has to be some kind of limits.

In 12 days it says I have used 450 minutes, and usually use about 1200 a month, I will have to go back and check out my useage.

We have not exceeded 5000 minutes yet, but as I mentioned in a previous post, as a teen I would talk with my girlfriend constantly, and it was nothing to rack up 1-2 hours on a call. My sister lived on the phone. She and her friend would talk on the phone as they watched the same TV shows. (Ma Bell never complained.)

5000 minutes = 2.77 hours of daily average use. I have little doubt my sister and I blew that figure into the weeds, and that does not count what our parents might have used.

But like Steve said, this is strictly a matter of principle. If a company advertises Unlimited Minutes, then by law they should be required to deliver Unlimited Minutes. Otherwise, it should be called a 5000 minute plan-- or if that draws too much ugly attention to a minute cap, call it some other fluff word like Deluxe Plan, or whatever.
 
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melodywhr
Vonage Forum Associate
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Joined: Jul 19, 2007
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

bear in mind that Vonage will flag your account from the "usage department" for anything they determine as being "inconsistent with normal residential usage patterns". i recently got an email for the overuse of call forwarding. they offer simulring and call forwarding features that will stay on until you log in to your online Vonage account but the terms of service states that this is considered a violation. i was actually told by the "usage department" that i wasn't allowed to use simulring anymore or they'll change my service to a 5000 minutes call center plan. and if i didn't like that, they would disconnect my line. i have issues with the use of words like "unlimited" when the services and features offered are in fact limited. i signed up with Vonage for the unlimited international calls and i call one person. i've set up the virtual number so she could call me. and when i'm not at home, the phone rings on my cell which is primarily when i'm at work. they don't look at how long i've been on these forwarded calls, they look at the number of forwarded calls and if there is any abundance of forwards, it is because she's on a cell phone and her calls are dropping. or if there's a service disruption and calls are forwarded to my cell phone's voice mail.

i have filed complaints with the better business bureau (of whom Vonage used to be members but were dropped because they weren't resolving their complaints) and with the FCC asking for them to either remove the limitation of call forwarding, remove call forwarding if it's against the TOS, or provide a feature that would allow the scheduling of call forwarding on an account.

the complaints here about accounts being flagged for being over 5000 minutes, you have a valid argument and you should file a complaint with these organizations including your state's attorney general. Vonage should be required to indicate what they consider to be normal residential usage patterns and they should also be required to change the name of their service because it is not premium and it is not unlimited.
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ShelChgo
Vonage Forum Senior
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Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

5,000 minutes will get you an inquiry as to your usage, not disconnected or any other such action. I have 2 lines, 3 kids between 12 & 19 and try to work from home a couple days a week. When school is out in the summer months my usage would top 7,000 minutes. When they called and I explained my usage they said fine and noted it on my account. No problem since. My employer has now sprung for a 3rd line from another provider and my usage still tops 5,000 minutes on Vonage pretty often.

The Unlimited residential plan is unlimited. But they also have the understandable right to ask the questions needed to make sure you're not a business trying to fraudulently use a residential line to run a business.
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DigitalVoice
Vonage Forum Master
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Joined: Dec 14, 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Phoenix

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Vonage Define "Excessive Use"? Reply with quote Back to top

dconnor wrote:

In the 4 1/2 years of running this site, I have only heard of two times that Vonage has enforced this [excessive use] rule:

[...]
2) A woman who was using the line as a baby monitor.

Dan


Baby:
- aga-ggaoo papa ggg mamaaaa (...call dropped)

Woman:
- ohmygod!!!!
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melodywhr
Vonage Forum Associate
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Joined: Jul 19, 2007
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ShelChgo wrote:

The Unlimited residential plan is unlimited. But they also have the understandable right to ask the questions needed to make sure you're not a business trying to fraudulently use a residential line to run a business.


understandable right to ask does not describe the communications that i had with the usage department. i was very cordial and i am complying with their request even though i do not agree with it.
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spdickey
Vonage Forum Junior
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Joined: Oct 27, 2005
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Vonage "Residental Use" Terms of service Reply with quote Back to top

Read the TOS folks, its what you agreed to, and nothing more...

2.2 Residential Use of Service and Device. If you subscribe to Vonage's residential services, the Service and the Device are provided to you solely for residential use. You shall not resell or transfer the Service or the Device to another party without our prior written consent. You are prohibited from using the Service or the Device for auto-dialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, telemarketing (including charitable or political solicitation or polling), fax or voicemail broadcasting or fax or voicemail blasting. We reserve the right to immediately disconnect or modify your Service if we determine, in our sole and absolute discretion, that your use of the Service or the Device is, or at any time was, inconsistent with normal residential usage patterns. In addition, you will be required to pay our higher rates for commercial service for all periods in which your use of the Service or the Device was inconsistent with normal residential use.
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rebus
Vonage Forum Evangelist
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Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 448
Location: Tampa Bay

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Vonage "Residental Use" Terms of service Reply with quote Back to top

spdickey wrote:
if we determine, in our sole and absolute discretion, that your use of the Service or the Device is, or at any time was, inconsistent with normal residential usage patterns.

Yet, they don't define in writing what constitutes "normal residential usage patterns". And "sole and absolute discretion" is code for "because we say so, when we feel like it".

Most reputable competitors I've looked at spell out in their ToS that anything above 5000 minutes (or 5100 in one case) is considered abnormal.

I take disgruntled note that "unlimited" is actually "a limit of 5000 minutes" when any dictionary says unlimited is without limits. I also understand that in their eyes, people who use more than that are not as profitable, so who cares if they get mad and leave. Stinks, huh?

5000 != unlimited

For the non-programmers out there, != means "not equal".
 
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spdickey
Vonage Forum Junior
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Joined: Oct 27, 2005
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Vonage "Residental Use" Terms of service Reply with quote Back to top

rebus wrote:
Most reputable competitors I've looked at spell out in their ToS that anything above 5000 minutes (or 5100 in one case) is considered abnormal.


Since your comment above did not contain information about who the "most reputable competitors" were I looked up a few of the largest Voip operators and found the following. All seem rather alike to Vonage's TOS. Out of these four (and they are some of the largest providers of Voip) only Verizon mentions a presumption that 5000 or more minutes is not "residential" use. I assume from your statement that the rest are not "reputable."

Quoting from Packet8

10. PERSONAL USE. 8x8's Service Plans for residential End Users that offer unlimited minutes of PSTN calls ("Unlimited PSTN Plans") are for the reasonable personal residential use of End User only. This means that End User is not to resell or transfer the Service or Equipment to any other person for any purpose, without express written permission from 8x8 in advance. End Users shall not use the Services for commercial or governmental purposes, or for profit or non-profit activities, including, but not limited to, home office, business, sales, tele-commuting, autodialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, continuous connectivity, fax broadcast, fax blasting, telemarketing, junk faxing, fax spamming, calling/faxing any person (through the use of distribution lists or otherwise) who has not given specific permission to be included in such a process or any other activity that would be inconsistent with personal and residential usage.... End User agrees to notify 8x8 immediately if usage of the Unlimited PSTN Plans changes from personal residential to business use and to subscribe to a business plan. 8x8 reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the Services of any End User using Unlimited PSTN Plans if 8x8 determines, in its sole discretion, that End User is not using the Unlimited PSTN Plans for End User's reasonable personal residential use.

From Comcast Digital Voice...

b. Residential Use Only
Unless you subscribe to a Service plan that expressly permits otherwise, you agree to use the Services solely in a private residence; in living quarters in a hotel, hospital, dormitory, sorority or fraternity house, or boarding house; or in the residential portion of a premises used for both business and residential purposes. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, you agree to use the Services only for personal and non-commercial purposes; however, you are permitted to use the Services to make business calls that are incidental to your personal and non-commercial use of the Services at the premises described in the preceding sentence.
You expressly agree not to use the Services for auto-dialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, telemarketing, fax broadcasting or fax blasting, or for any other use that results in excessive usage inconsistent with normal residential calling patterns. If we determine, in our sole discretion, that your Service is being used for any of the aforementioned activities, we reserve the right (i) immediately and without Notice to terminate or modify the Service and (ii) to assess additional charges for each month in which excessive usage occurred.

Now from Verizon VoiceWing...

c. Use of Service and Device. You may not resell or transfer the Service to any other person for any purpose, or make any charge for the use of the Service, without express written permission from Verizon in advance. Verizon reserves the right to immediately terminate, change the calling plan or modify the Service if Verizon determines, in its sole discretion, that your usage exceeds our normal usage levels. Usage in excess of 5,000 minutes in any month shall be considered above normal levels and may be investigated and subject to the conditions above.

Time Warner Digital Phone...

(ii) If I receive Digital Phone Service, I agree not to use the Services for telemarketing, call center, medical transcription or facsimile broadcasting Services or for any enterprise purpose whether or not the enterprise is directed toward making a profit. I agree that, among other things, my use of the Services to make available my Digital Phone Service, or any portion thereof, to (or to provide or permit access by) persons outside the location identified in the Work Order (even if to a limited group of people or to other residences that I own or have the right to use), will constitute an enterprise purpose.
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