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dualcomm
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Use RJ45 splitters to connect a PC and an ATA by one Cat5 Reply with quote Back to top



RJ45 CABLE SPLITTER - Use it to connect PC and Voip ATA by one CAT5

Hi,

This is my first post here in this forum. As a network engineer for many years, I just want to introduce to you a cable sharing application of RJ45 splitters. If you have your PC and Vonage ATA in one room or an office cubicle that are to be connected to an Ethernet switch/router in another room, you can connect both PC and ATA by using one Cat5 cable with a pair of RJ45 splitters. This can be a great way to save cabling cost and labors in wiring your PC and ATA. Below is network diagram showing how this is done.

By the way, I open an account on eBay. if you want to have them, please click here to see it first. Please don't consider my post a spam, because this is the only item I am selling on eBay. I would like to know how people would become interested in this great cable sharing idea.

Thanks,

dualcomm

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navydavy2001
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Wierd. In your examples, why would you not just plug the devices directly into the switch, which may or may not be a smarter device, foregoing the need for a "splitter?" I don't know, splitting CAT5 like that worries me. I need more detail on how signaling and CSMA/CD work properly with that.

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mjstraw
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

These have been around for years.

Work fine with 10M, can cause problems with 100M and definitely don't work with 1000M

Mark
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navydavy2001
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, 100 and 1000 were what I was thinking about. If anyone is still running 10 only, it's time to upgrade. Very Happy

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dualcomm
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

mjstraw wrote:
These have been around for years.

Work fine with 10M, can cause problems with 100M and definitely don't work with 1000M

Mark


----------------------------------------------------------------------
This RJ45 splitter definitely works with 100M Ethernet or fast Ethernet. 10M and 100M Ethernet has one thing in common that they use only 2 of the 4 twisted pairs in a Cat5 cable for transmitting and receiving packets. What does the splitter do is to use the other 2 remaining twisted pairs to transmitting and receiving packets for a second Ethernet device.

I personally tested them by connecting two computers through a pair of my RJ45 splitters over a Cat5 cable of 100-meter (300 feet) long, they just works great.

dualcomm
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dualcomm
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

navydavy2001 wrote:
Wierd. In your examples, why would you not just plug the devices directly into the switch, which may or may not be a smarter device, foregoing the need for a "splitter?" I don't know, splitting CAT5 like that worries me. I need more detail on how signaling and CSMA/CD work properly with that.


By using a pair of RJ45 splitters connected by a CAT5 cable of 4 twisted pairs, which uses only 2 twisted pairs for transmitting and receiving packets, the two unused twisted pairs are used for second 10/100 Ethernet link, so there is no signal collision.

dualcomm
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mjstraw
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Your test is meaningless. It's a single, isolated, uncontrolled configuration. Did you collect stats on the two lines (errors, retrans etc). Did you test them under full load?

We have almost 10,000 active jacks here. We'll activate a jack for two 10Mb connections using splitters but NOT 100Mb

Cables will fail cat5 certification testing with splitters installed. The presence of signals on the "unused" pairs doesn't affect 10Mb but will definitely cause problems with 100Mb.

Always? no. Consistently? no. Just enough to drive you nuts trying to figure out what's going on.

Mark
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zq
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

mjstraw wrote:
Your test is meaningless. It's a single, isolated, uncontrolled configuration. Did you collect stats on the two lines (errors, retrans etc). Did you test them under full load?

We have almost 10,000 active jacks here. We'll activate a jack for two 10Mb connections using splitters but NOT 100Mb

Cables will fail cat5 certification testing with splitters installed. The presence of signals on the "unused" pairs doesn't affect 10Mb but will definitely cause problems with 100Mb.

Always? no. Consistently? no. Just enough to drive you nuts trying to figure out what's going on.

Mark


Thanks for your inputs. I am very interested in what you told me. However, there are a couple of things as I will describe below that have convinced me that it is perfectly OK to use the two unused twisted pairs to transmit Ethernet signals.

1) My testing setup included a 100-meter long CAT5 cable with a RJ45 splitter at one end connecting two computers and another RJ45 splitter at the other end connecting two Ethernet switch ports of a Router, both of the two computers "ping" to the router at the same time. The length of "ping" packets was set to the maximum length 1518B. After being left running overnight, the result showed only a couple of packets got lost. I did not remember the total number of packets being transmitted, though.

2) I also did some calculations on the added cross talks (NEXT loss) when the two unused twisted pairs are also used to transmit another channel of Ethernet signals, and the added cross talk is still within the 100Base-TX specification. See the picture below, Figure (A) is what I copied from IEEE802.3 regarding the minimum near end cross talk (NEXT) loss, and Figure (B) is the maximum near-end cross talk (NEXT) that one transmit pair of a Cat5E cable can cause. transmitting on the unused twisted pair is equivalent to increase the cross talk by 3dB (doubled). You can pick up different frequency points to compared the two numbers. For example, at 100MHz, the NEXT loss required by IEEE 802.3 is 27.1dB minimum, the total cross talk caused by two transmitting pairs within a CAT5 cable is 35.3dB-3dB=32.3dB, which is still more than 5dB lower than what IEEE802.3 requires (these dB number are actually negative). Therefore I believe it is safe to use the two unused pairs for a second 100M Ethernet signals.



3) Cisco has a 96-port Ethernet switch that uses two unused twisted pairs for a second Ethernet signals. Here is the link to the Cisco's web page:

Cisco Splitter Patch Panel

Pay attention to what they said below:
" The splitter patch panel is used with the WS-X6148X2-RJ-45 10/100 Ethernet module to provide you with 96 Ethernet ports. The WS-X6148X2-RJ-45 Ethernet module has 48 physical RJ-45 connectors. By utilizing the two unused Ethernet pairs in each connector, the port density of the module is doubled."

Thus, If I don't miss something in a big way, I am really confused by what you claimed that you can only run at 10M when the splitters are used.

Can you describe in a little more details how you do the CAT5 testing with RJ45 splitters installed?

I am wondering if or not the cables you are using are just CAT3, not CAT5. CAT3 is not good to run even one Ethernet sginal.

John
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mjstraw
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Posts: 187

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

zq - who are you, what happened to dualcomm?

what were your stats at the mac level? Packet loss is higher in the stack and would not reflect mac level errors. Were you running full or half duplex?

calculations are nice, but measurements are better

our netops people use a fluke cat5 test instrument - not sure of the model

you (if you're dualcomm) are selling a product, so I'd expect you to "believe it is safe" but I feel it is necessary to give prospective purchasers an unbiased opinion.

Mark
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dualcomm
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Joined: May 21, 2007
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

mjstraw wrote:
zq - who are you, what happened to dualcomm?

what were your stats at the mac level? Packet loss is higher in the stack and would not reflect mac level errors. Were you running full or half duplex?

calculations are nice, but measurements are better

our netops people use a fluke cat5 test instrument - not sure of the model

you (if you're dualcomm) are selling a product, so I'd expect you to "believe it is safe" but I feel it is necessary to give prospective purchasers an unbiased opinion.

Mark



I was surprised it showed up as "zq". I did use "zq" as an ID somewhere else. I guess I signed up an account here with "zq" long time ago, and I used my another computer to post that was already singed in as "zq". Anyway, zq is dualcomm.

Now back to your questions. When I "ping" from a computer, and if I see zero or a insignificant amount of packet loss after sending and receiving hundreds of thousands "ping" packets, that tells me clearly that the Ethernet connection is solid without any noise interference including cross talks and etc. This is what I actually have observed and verified in testing the RJ45 splitters.

If there are a lot of packet loss, that would be a different story, and then you need to dig into it more to find if the packet loss is caused at the PHY layer or at higher layers (MAC layer). However, this did not happen to the testing I did. When I see the error count is zero, I don't need to go after it any more.

In my testing, the two Ethernet links over one CAT5 with two RJ45 splitters installed are 100M, full duplex.

Believe me, as far as I know, there is no cable tester in the world that can be used to test and tell if or not running two Ethernet links by "splitting" one CAT5 would fail.

Actually, you don't need any specific testing instrument. The most practical testing method is to run some traffic tests over a 100-meter cable to check the packet loss rate. "Ping" is easiest method you can use.

As you can see, I made my claim based on both real world testing and measurement results as well as theoretical calculations.

As far as I can tell, some people tend to avoid using RJ45 splitters for cable sharing because they are just misinformed not to do so.

I hope my these posts here may clear the misunderstandings. Of course, it may help me sell more RJ45 splitters, but I never expect to get rich from selling them. Smile


John
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