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Dave_MI
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Joined: Apr 18, 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Poor DSL QOS% and Bad incoming audio Reply with quote Back to top

Hi. I subscribed to Vonage on 13 March, attracted by the price Smile It was working great, so I decided to cancel my landline. Incidently my landline is from the same company that provides my DSL, as is usually the case. However, shortly after cancelling my landline, my Vonage suddenly became virtually unusable. It's irrelevant if I initiate the call or someone calls me, they can always hear me crystal clear, but I get severe chop and can't hardly hear them at all. To make matters worse, it's intermittent, so it's tough to trouble shoot. When it's good, it's great, crystal clear, no static, so I know it's a digital loss, not an analog interference problem. When the connection is good, it doesn't usually last more than 10 minutes before I get severe chop on the receive (downloaded) audio, but again the transmit (uploaded) audio is always 100% clear. My DSL service is 384/384 (or least is supposed to be).

My network set-up is:
-Panaway/Thomson SpeedTouch 546 DSL Modem (DHCP, not PPPoE)
-Motorola VT2142 Vonage Telephone Adapter
-D-Link 714P+ Wireless Router
-Home Wiring
-Memorex MPH6928 900MHz Cordless Phone

I don't think it's a LAN QoS issue because the router is after the phone adapter, and I still have the problem even if I turn the router off. I do think the ISP QOS is a contributing factor, here's my test results:

Speed test statistics
---------------------
Download speed: 170976 bps
Upload speed: 163200 bps
Quality of service: 30 %
Download test type: socket
Upload test type: socket
Maximum download pause: 568 ms
Average download pause: 192 ms
Minimum round trip time to server: 138 ms
Average round trip time to server: 226 ms

Voip test statistics
--------------------
Jitter: you --> server: 5.4 ms
Jitter: server --> you: 9.5 ms
Packet loss: you --> server: 0.0 %
Packet loss: server --> you: 0.0 %
Packet discards: 0.0 %
Packets out of order: 0.0 %
Number of supported Voip lines: 2
Estimated MOS score: 3.9

I've done all the suggested things from the Vonage site, such as reduce my bandwidth to 30 kbps. I normally get about 300 kbps and still have the problem, even though the above test shows about 170 (particularly bad tonight I guess). I've ensured separation of devices, my house wire is disconnected at the demarc, etc.

I even went so far as to conduct a trace route with these results:
Tracing route to yahoo.com [66.94.234.13]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 3 ms 3 ms 3 ms 192.168.0.1
2 3 ms 3 ms 4 ms mygateway1.Motorola [192.168.16.1]
3 30 ms 99 ms 99 ms pannaway.lan [192.168.125.1]
4 59 ms 59 ms 59 ms 10.45.65.1
5 124 ms 59 ms 83 ms 10.45.250.1
6 61 ms 59 ms 59 ms 209.165.254.254
7 72 ms 71 ms 75 ms 209.165.240.21
8 85 ms 82 ms 83 ms GigE5-2.GW4.DET5.ALTER.NET [157.130.98.37]
9 91 ms 91 ms 83 ms 500.at-6-3-0.CL2.DET5.ALTER.NET [152.63.27.106]
10 97 ms 91 ms 86 ms 0.so-5-0-0.XL2.CHI13.ALTER.NET [152.63.64.14]
11 90 ms 83 ms 91 ms 0.so-7-0-0.BR2.CHI13.ALTER.NET [152.63.73.29]
12 99 ms 99 ms 87 ms 204.255.168.118
13 107 ms 87 ms 99 ms ae-1-53.bbr1.Chicago1.Level3.net [4.68.101.65]
14 137 ms 135 ms 135 ms as-1-0.bbr2.SanJose1.Level3.net [64.159.0.242]
15 226 ms 227 ms 231 ms ae-23-56.car3.SanJose1.Level3.net [4.68.123.173]
16 259 ms 267 ms 511 ms 4.71.112.14
17 145 ms 151 ms 140 ms ge-3-0-0-p261.msr1.scd.yahoo.com [216.115.106.18
7]
18 148 ms 143 ms 138 ms ten-2-3-bas2.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.82.223]
19 148 ms 139 ms 139 ms yahoo.com [66.94.234.13]
Trace complete.

Based on the bad return times and the QOS, I contacted my ISP and they basically told me that the problem was outside of their network and therefore outside of their control. I don't tend to believe this. Any suggestions on this problem and possibly make me sound smarter when trying to argue with my ISP and not get snowed by them?

Thanks,
Dave.
(sorry for the long post, I figured more info was better for troubleshooting).
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xcrunxc
Vonage Forum Evangelist
Vonage Forum Evangelist


Joined: Aug 04, 2006
Posts: 414
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, your latency is pretty awful there. Well, to start hop 3 appears to be your DSL modem. Why is it taking 99ms to get from your computer to your modem? That is quite high. It should be no more than 5ms I would say. This could be caused by the modem or the Vonage adapter or your wireless router. So, lets simplify your network for some tests. Plug your PC directly into your DSL modem, rebooting both. Then, re-run the same tests you did before(voip speed test, and tracert) and post the results here. This should give us a clearer picture of what is occurring.
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NateHoy
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 2257
Location: New England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

First off - WOW! Excellent research! (round of applause).

Second, xcrunxc is right. hop three is your problem, or at least the start of it.

3 30 ms 99 ms 99 ms pannaway.lan [192.168.125.1]

99ms for a LOCAL device is, well, ridiculously slow.

But normally your modem's IP address would not show up in a tracert. So your Panaway is actually a modem AND a router.

Since Vonage routers tend to be weak, and you are putting extra load on the Vonage router by making it handle all the traffic from your D-Link... You may want to put the Vonage VT2142 behind the D-Link router to see if that helps. Turn the VT2142 into a Vonage adapter only.

Even better - If your Panaway can give out multiple IP addresses, you may want to use the D-Link as a wireless access point and hub/switch only (turn off its DHCP server and don't plug anything into the WAN/Internet port of it).

So, your network would be as follows:

Panaway -> (LAN port) on D-Link (DHCP turned off on D-Link).
D-Link (LAN Port) -> WAN port on VT2142
D-Link (LAN Port) -> Computer(s)
D-Link (Wireless) -> Computer(s)

This bypasses as many layers in your network as possible, and simplifies your network paths.

Having said that... I find it suspicious that your service quality dropped when you went "naked DSL"... Well, call me overly suspicious, but that tells me your DSL/Telco *may* have degraded your service to discourage the use of latency-sensitive applications - like competitor's Voip lines, for example.

But simplifying your local network is always a good first step.

_________________
Comcast Cable (3m down / 256k up) -> Linksys BEFCMU10 v2 (DOCSIS 1.0) -> WRT54G v4 ("Tomato" firmware) -> the rest of my network including a WRTP54G (Firmware: 5.01.04)
My Vonage Self-Help Guides: http://vonage.nmhoy.net
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Dave_MI
New Forum Member
New Forum Member


Joined: Apr 18, 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, don't feel bad, I have those same suspicions... Wink

Anyway, I originally did have my VT2142 plugged into the D-Link and the D-Link direct to the DSL modem. I had some issues but not as bad. Since the VT2142 is *supposed* to give voice packets priority and my D-link model doesn't have QoS capability, I switched my network around to how I described it. After the switch, things seemed to be going good, then bam, no landline, bad quality on Vonage. Of course, now I know that the VT2142 is not much of a router, and I know more about QoS now, that LAN QoS is not the problem.

Thanks for the help, I will simplify my network tonight when I get home from work and try it out, and will repost my new test results.
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NateHoy
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 2257
Location: New England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think simplifying things will necessarily help your problem, but at least you'll have eliminated some routing hops here and there on your LAN, and the TRACERTS you send to your DSL provider won't have two layers of LAN routing on them (which is probably the first thing they'd point to).

The only potential problem is if the Pannaway is not capable of handing out more than one IP address. You'll learn that darned quick if it is the case. (grin)

_________________
Comcast Cable (3m down / 256k up) -> Linksys BEFCMU10 v2 (DOCSIS 1.0) -> WRT54G v4 ("Tomato" firmware) -> the rest of my network including a WRTP54G (Firmware: 5.01.04)
My Vonage Self-Help Guides: http://vonage.nmhoy.net
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Dave_MI
New Forum Member
New Forum Member


Joined: Apr 18, 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, just to keep a baseline, here's my test results tonight before I changed anything:

test 1:
236 kbps down
192 kbps up
33% QOS
981 ms round-trip time
692 ms max pause

test 2:
409 kbps down
407 kbps up
98% QOS
121 ms round-trip time
179 ms max pause

(see what I mean about intermittent? These tests were run back to back)

Here's the results with my computer directly plugged into the DSL modem:

test 1:
393 kbps down
398 kbps up
39% QOS
117 ms round-trip time
823 ms max pause

test 2:
399 kbps down
382 kbps up
27% QOS
118 ms round-trip time
841 ms max pause

and the trace route:

Tracing route to yahoo.com [66.94.234.13]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 89 ms 99 ms 99 ms pannaway.lan [192.168.125.1]
2 53 ms 55 ms 55 ms 10.45.65.1
3 55 ms 55 ms 55 ms 10.45.250.1
4 53 ms 55 ms 55 ms 209.165.254.254
5 70 ms 67 ms 95 ms 209.165.240.21
6 72 ms 75 ms 79 ms GigE5-2.GW4.DET5.ALTER.NET [157.130.98.37]
7 77 ms 75 ms 79 ms 500.at-6-3-0.CL2.DET5.ALTER.NET [152.63.27.106]

8 81 ms 83 ms 83 ms 0.so-5-0-0.XL2.CHI13.ALTER.NET [152.63.64.14]
9 86 ms 83 ms 83 ms 0.so-7-0-0.BR2.CHI13.ALTER.NET [152.63.73.29]
10 82 ms 83 ms 87 ms 204.255.168.118
11 82 ms 87 ms 83 ms ae-1-53.bbr1.Chicago1.Level3.net [4.68.101.65]
12 311 ms 283 ms 243 ms as-1-0.bbr2.SanJose1.Level3.net [64.159.0.242]
13 988 ms 979 ms 131 ms ae-13-51.car3.SanJose1.Level3.net [4.68.123.13]

14 134 ms 131 ms 127 ms 4.71.112.14
15 130 ms 135 ms 135 ms ge-3-0-0-p261.msr1.scd.yahoo.com [216.115.106.18
7]
16 156 ms 131 ms 139 ms ten-2-3-bas1.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.82.221]
17 128 ms 135 ms 135 ms w2.rc.vip.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.234.13]

Trace complete.

And finally, I put the D-Link router after the DSL modem, then the VT2142 plugged into the router as well as my computer into the router (and this is how I left my network for now), with the following results:

test 1:
349 kbps down
362 kbps up
63% QOS
117 ms round-trip time
464 ms max pause

test 2:
395 kbps down
321 kbps up
90% QOS
111 ms round-trip time
537 ms max pause

and the trace route:

Tracing route to yahoo.com [66.94.234.13]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 93 ms 99 ms 99 ms pannaway.lan [192.168.125.1]
3 54 ms 55 ms 55 ms 10.45.65.1
4 55 ms 55 ms 55 ms 10.45.250.1
5 55 ms 55 ms 55 ms 209.165.254.254
6 73 ms 83 ms 75 ms 209.165.240.21
7 108 ms 79 ms 71 ms GigE5-2.GW4.DET5.ALTER.NET [157.130.98.37]
8 80 ms 91 ms 79 ms 500.at-6-3-0.CL2.DET5.ALTER.NET [152.63.27.106]

9 92 ms 91 ms 95 ms 0.so-5-0-0.XL2.CHI13.ALTER.NET [152.63.64.14]
10 88 ms 91 ms 79 ms 0.so-7-0-0.BR2.CHI13.ALTER.NET [152.63.73.29]
11 83 ms 95 ms 107 ms 204.255.168.118
12 93 ms 87 ms 95 ms ae-1-55.bbr1.Chicago1.Level3.net [4.68.101.129]

13 155 ms 135 ms 131 ms ae-0-0.bbr1.SanJose1.Level3.net [64.159.1.129]
14 137 ms 139 ms 135 ms ae-23-54.car3.SanJose1.Level3.net [4.68.123.109]

15 * 134 ms 135 ms 4.71.112.14
16 164 ms 135 ms 147 ms ge-3-0-0-p271.msr2.scd.yahoo.com [216.115.106.19
1]
17 174 ms 147 ms 131 ms ten-2-3-bas2.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.82.223]
18 142 ms 135 ms 151 ms w2.rc.vip.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.234.13]

Trace complete.

Regardless, I'm still having 99 ms to my Panaway, which I agree is insanely long, I guess I'll have to beat up my ISP about that since they provided it. I don't seem to be having as much latency, although it's still higher than it should be (especially thru San Jose vs anywhere else), and the tests show the network configuration doesn't *seem* to make a lot of difference, but who knows, the problem is still intermittent. I must say though, after changing my network around tonight, I seem to be getting better quality on the Vonage phone than I have been, but I'm still having the same symptoms, just not as severe.

Any other suggestions? Do you figure it's my ISP (other than the Panaway)?

Thanks,
Dave.
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NateHoy
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 2257
Location: New England

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'm voting with you - the Panaway either is bad, has been deliberately mistuned, or just coincidentally has a consistent 99ms delay (for those keeping track at home - 1/10 of a second isn't noticeable for web surfing, but would wreak holy havoc on Voip)

I'm VERY suspicious about the exact delay on the Panaway... a nearly perfectly consistent 99ms delay is NOT normal. If it varied, OK, I'd say it was load or some other intermittent issue. It almost seems (said the conspiracy theorist) that your Panaway was configured with a "wait 95ms" process in it... A tenth of a frikkin' second to route packets, though? Puh-leeze....

Cable Internet wouldn't be available in your area, would it? (grin)

Vonage may be able to increase the signal re-integration delay to compensate. You'd have a slight increase in the delay on the line (not too much, but probably 1/4 to 1/2 second would be plenty) and that would give the packets a little extra time to traverse the Panaway...

_________________
Comcast Cable (3m down / 256k up) -> Linksys BEFCMU10 v2 (DOCSIS 1.0) -> WRT54G v4 ("Tomato" firmware) -> the rest of my network including a WRTP54G (Firmware: 5.01.04)
My Vonage Self-Help Guides: http://vonage.nmhoy.net
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