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Post new topic   Reply to topic  Vonage® VoIP Forum - Vonage News, Reviews And Discussion » Hard Wiring - Installation
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jrgalan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

OK, end of the story! yupi!!
Finally a Tech came to my house to find out that all the wiring that I had done was correct.
He did all the house testing and everything was ok. He called Counterforce guys and tested as it is. It did not work. I think he used the term Express protocol. Then he asked them to try a slower protocol and it worked just fine.
Then we agreed locally that his presence was not needed and if Counterforece had done what I asked. Trying a slower format, then He would have never had to come to my house.
Then I called Counterforce to ask for their fax to explain completely and try to get my $$ that I just paid to the tech for asking Counterforce to try a slower format.
Counterfore decided to credit me that money.
Thanks for all the help Steve!
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Steve48
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

That's terrific. It's too bad that it was such a hassle for, but all's well that ends well. And I had fun!

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Steve Gray
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Dj_Shawn
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:26 am    Post subject: Alarms and Vontage Reply with quote Back to top

I used to install home and business alarm systems for years before Voip and Vonage came along.
However, from a technical side of things you’re exactly correct Steve48. Very Happy
Hooking up Vonage to your whole house with an alarm system is pretty simple if one knows the order of how to hook things up. Changing to Vonage from old land line service with an alarm panel in the mix could be kind of tricky for those who don't fully understand how an alarm panel’s phone relay works. Also understanding that ALL alarm panels can send their data at different data rates (kind of like old dial-up internet phone modems or fax machines). Alarms work basically the same way except they are designed to take full control and cease every phone jack in your house or office when an alarm takes place so that the alarm panel can free the line totally until it sends its data to the monitoring station. Once this is done (usually in about a minute or less) the panel gives back phone service to the home or office.

Now here is where some people can really get confused and it's not their fault. *Sometimes "lazy" alarm installers do not hook the phone line up correctly from the alarm panel. They simply run the red and green wire from the alarm to a jack in the house, or to the outside box! Basically turning the alarm panel into just another phone as far as wiring is concerned. This is NOT the proper way to wire an alarm panel! Although it will work and the panel can send its signals, it does not allow for the panel to KILL the home phones! So if a phone is off the hook or being used it can't dial out!! I used to go back on jobs other installers had done and find this and it used to make me so mad!!
That's what we called "cheating the system" so the installer could get done faster. If you are a victim of this call your alarm company and let them know!! This is illegal, but allot of homes and business's are probably wired this way and don't even know it! [Here is how you can check this very easy].... Pick up any home phone, listen for the dial tone and then set off the alarm. *If you still hear a dial tone and hear the alarm trying to dial out you've been had by a lazy alarm installer!

Other problems like stated earlier that allot of people and even some alarm installers forget to check is phone line "polarity"! If the polarity is reversed this too can and will cause problems with alarms, faxes, some phones, and probably even Vonage! Just because the wire is red does not mean it's for sure the positive HOT wire! I have scene even techs from large phone companies have these wires backward coming from the poll on the street to your house. They can be lazy too! But if your hooking up Vonage this will not matter if you are planning to make you whole house run only Vonage, just be sure to totally disconnect the land line wires that are coming from the street poll and replace them with your new Vonage wires (Red and Green = Line one, Yellow and Black = Line 2 if you have a second line) Back to polarity, there is really no way to test this without a telephone line test set like the phone companies and alarm installers have. If your having trouble and don't have access to one of these, simply try swapping the wires Red to Green, and Green to Red and see if things get better.
*Sometimes even phone jacks in your house could be wired backwards. A home or business that is wired correctly should test polarity perfect at every jack!

To put a nice cap and end to this subject and to answer worries and questions if having Vonage over a standard land line service is going to cause your alarm to not work, NO. There is no difference at all, except a lower bill each month and a better Voip phone service. Very Happy
---------------------------

Here is a basic run down wiring layout that may help some people better understand how it all works:

1. Check and Unhook the land line connection from the street first.

2. Replace it with the NEW Vonage line to the INPUT of your Alarm Panel or the wire that runs to it from the phone box on the side of your house to the Red and Green wires. (This can be tricky somtimes finding the correct wire that runs to the alarm panel since there may be allot of them! If things are normal you can tell imediatly what wire runs dirrectly to the alarm panel because it will be the only one where the red and green are hooked to the street / poll side alone and all other red and green wires are hooked to the Yellow and Black return lines from the alarm panel from the same 4 wire.)

3. You're alarm panel should now feed Vonage to your whole house or business back threw it's Yellow and Black wires to your phone jacks or outside box's Red and Green wires. *If the alarm goes off, the alarm panel should take over the Vonage line killing all phones and jacks so it can send its data to the monitoring station and then give back phone service once it's done. Cool

4. As long as all polarities and connections are in check and the data send rate of your alarm system is correct and normal you should not have any problems at all Cool

-----------------------------

Hope this helps anyone that might need it... Best of luck! It's really pretty easy if you take your time and think it all threw step by step8)

HERE IS A DIAGRAM I CREATED:
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jrgalan
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

thanks, I like the drawing but I still see the same problem that I had before. Nobody mentions the before and after very clear... I will explain in a few words my case.
BEFORE:
1- Red & Green coming from Alarm to Outside box. (These 2 connect to the outside world. In my case Verizon) (This is the way for Alarm to take over the phone lines and work properly)
2- the other two wires coming for the Alarm go to other 2 in the house.(Here I do not care at all, for me it is outside my scope of needs) (Also, you will see this connection inside the outside box)

AFTER:
1- Disconnect the green and red from the outside Box and run a line from the outside box to wherever the Vonage is. (Yes a new line that requires one wire from wallmart @ $10.00 and one connector for $5) This wire will very likely be red and green also.
2- Connect the red and green from the box outside and plug the Vonage into the connector at the other end of the new line....
3- MAGIC! just make sure the Alarm monitor company try the slowest possible protocol as Steve suggested, even slower than one they called Express Protocol...

Hope this helps others!
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Dj_Shawn
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject: correct Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks! It sounds like you got it! Cool

The same thing can be acomplished either way, (line cutting and splicing, or buying and paying $ for adaptors and wire.
Either way the general wiring diagram is just my simplified way to show and better understand visually how things should run, but this can be accomplished many different ways depending on your situation, site and needs.
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Steve48
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I see two major stumbling blocks for many people trying to do this. The first is the need for a dedicated pair from the Vonage unit to the alarm unit input- or to the NIU and from there to the alarm if you're modifying an existing system. The second is the polarity business. What a lot of people don't realize is that the Vonage boxes are made to provide correct polarity to a phone plugged directly into the Vonage box. If the Vonage box is connected to house wiring using a standard cord plugged into a standard jack, you'll get a polarity reversal on the wiring. Think about the way these cords are made and you'll see why. Many system, like my own, don't care, but some do.

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Steve Gray
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Dj_Shawn
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

More great points Steve48!

I did not really take into consideration of how one should get the wire from the Vonage box from it's standard phone jack output to the Alarm or NIU box outside. I guess I jumped ahead of myself since this all comes so easy for me and I still have boxes of 22/4 and CAT5E wire laying around the shop along with profesional crimper tools and blank phone jacks and network jacks along with a phone line test set (butt set) for polarity checking. "Most people would never have these things, only installers"

*This really could pose a huge problem for alot of people with older hardwired alarms in the mix!... Especially for larger multilevel homes needing long wire runs and no easy way to hide the wire in walls, attics, crawls, closets, etc.. A one level crawl space house is a piece of cake, but throw a 2 or 3 story slabe house with hardwood floors in the mix and that would be a nightmare "even for me" to get Vonage to the Alarm or NIU!..

I knew that the Vontage output jack on any given make or model of Vontage Box would have correct polarity if a standard phone was plugged dirrectly to it. So I can now see your problem about getting this standard output jack to the alarm or Niu box outside with the same correct polarity for most people. I guess one would have to custom make their wire like I did using blank jacks and a crimper tool, or do some wire splicing paying close attention to wire color on both ends so the polarity stays true to the original "short wire" unless they have access to a test set... Even then I think there is some math that can come into play about how long the wire run can be before you would need to use twisted CAT5E wire to keep from having signal lose or interferance in the line.

A friend of mine is still in the alarm business and he told me that right now just about 90% of every alarm install he does now uses Cell Phone relays so no hardwire land line is even needed anymore for alarms. That means this problem will work itself out in time Smile

Thanks for letting me and others know about these issues. They never crossed my mind. Cool
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saints
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:35 pm    Post subject: You should check out http://ucontrol.com Reply with quote Back to top

This security provider works with your existing alarm system and does not depend on a traditional phone line. Uses braodband, cellular and phone lines to connect back to their monitoring center. The cool thing is that all three communication paths are redundant and monitored - the sytem actually sends you and email or SMS if any one or all of the three paths are disconnected. Another cool feature is the ability to remotely control and monitor your alarm system via the web or your cell phone. The price is competitive to what I was paying ADT before - in fact a bit cheaper.

Check it our - http://ucontrol.com.
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