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navydavy2001
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Um, antivirus to stop a hacker?

Maybe try some basic security, as in a hardware AND a software firewall. Lock up your wireless access points, close unused ports, DON'T use cordless phones. It's very simple to foil hackers by retreating to older technology. Oh yeah, and don't use antivirus software to think your protected from a hacker. It's not called anti-hacker software.

"I am a CCIE and I have never heard of someone successfully tapping into VIOP traffic. If someone is listening, they have compromised your computer, so I would use anti-virus."

I wouldn't admit to being a CCIE when that kind of comment seems right to you. Someone CAN be listening and have NO access to the victim's computer. :eek:
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Producer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

navydavy2001 wrote:
I wouldn't admit to being a CCIE when that kind of comment seems right to you. Someone CAN be listening and have NO access to the victim's computer. Eek


I am not saying anti-virus will completely solve the issue, but since Vonage Nat's IP preventing incomming traffic, its the best solution other then cold clearing the whole network. Your completely right in saying "Basic security" which seems to be something the original poster has a problem with.

But there has never been a legitimate recorded court case of VIOP being tapped over the Internet. All have been inside.
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

navydavy -

I was trying to figure out what having your computer hacked had to do with intercepting Voip packets too, or what an antivirus package would be able to do about it.

I can kinda sorta see it for computer-based Voip, but if I wanted to intercept ANY Voip on a network, I wouldn't go to all the trouble of trying to hack a computer for it. I'd put a packet sniffer on the LAN and start capturing packets, filtering out the RTP ones, and reassembling the conversation based on that.

But, as long as your LAN is secure, once the packets start spreading out over multiple routes on the Internet, it becomes harder and harder to gather enough of a single call, and to clearly identify the endpoints of that call, to make it useful.

Not that it's impossible, but it's not an easy exercise. Your ISP could do it fairly easily, but they can predict one of the endpoints easily, and see all the packets going to that endpoint. Vonage could on the other side.

I'd be FAR more concerned about some bozo putting a small transmitter inside your telephone box on the side of the house, and sitting nearby listening in, or something like that.

_________________
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navydavy2001
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="Producer"][quote="navydavy2001"]I wouldn't admit to being a CCIE when that kind of comment seems right to you. Someone CAN be listening and have NO access to the victim's computer. :eek:[/quote]

I am not saying anti-virus will completely solve the issue, but since Vonage Nat's IP preventing incomming traffic, its the best solution other then cold clearing the whole network. Your completely right in saying "Basic security" which seems to be something the original poster has a problem with.

But there has never been a legitimate recorded court case of VIOP being tapped over the Internet. All have been inside.[/quote]

I apologize for that comment; it was mean-spirited and not justifed. Anti-virus software, as part of a larger security doctrine, is essential when using software-based Voip. I usually think in terms of network montoring, not PC monitoring, so I pull back my comment.

I'm just an ass today because I'm a year older. Again. :wink:
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Producer wrote:
am not saying anti-virus will completely solve the issue, but since Vonage Nat's IP preventing incomming traffic, its the best solution other then cold clearing the whole network. Your completely right in saying "Basic security" which seems to be something the original poster has a problem with.



I have to admit to some confusion...

If your Vonage gear is your "front end", then I agree that no RTP packets are going to hit your local LAN, the Vonage router would intercept and use them and not forward them to the LAN, therefore no computer on the LAN is going to be able to sniff them out.

If, like me, you have your Vonage router behind another router, then of course anyone on that LAN could sniff out the RTP packeta and reproduce the call. In fact, it's pretty easy to do. That assumes someone has gained access to your LAN, of course.

I do agree that intercepting RTP from an Internet router is a non-trivial task, and becomes less likely the further you get from endpoints, so your ISP and Vonage are the only ones who would be likely to be able to intercept it if they chose. Of course, someone could put you on a static route and intercept your traffic, but that assumes a high level of control over a lot of routers. They'd really, really have to want to get at you.

But, if the Vonage router is out front, then even a virus-laden PC is not going to be able to get at the packets on the other end of the NAT layer. And if the packets are on a LAN and able to be intercepted, you don't need to infect a machine to do it.

Don't get me wrong, I'll ALWAYS agree that AntiVirus is a must in Windows, especially with free AV clients out there like Grisoft AVG and others. There's literally no excuse NOT to run one. Wink

_________________
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

navydavy2001 wrote:
...I'm a year older. Again. Wink


Happy Birthday. Maybe you're a year older, but it sure as heck beats the alternative, doesn't it? Wink

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navydavy2001
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Sometimes it does, Nate. :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Np navydavy2001. no offense taken, its hard to offend me on a forum anyways.

NateHoy, out of curiosity, are you saying you can sniff all VIOP traffic going from one computer on the lan to the Internet from another computer on the lan? I was just saying if the source computer is infected then a virus would be the problem.

I realize you can spoof the mac,capturing more traffic, but I thought that caused problems on linksys switches. I know there could be more factors involved here, but I am pretty sure you can't sniff other traffic on a switched network in general unless you use a promiscuous mode. You will see the headers, but thats about it.
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Producer wrote:


I realize you can spoof the mac,capturing more traffic, but I thought that caused problems on linksys switches. I know there could be more factors involved here, but I am pretty sure you can't sniff other traffic on a switched network in general unless you use a promiscuous mode. You will see the headers, but thats about it.


(I hate typing "promiscuous", my fingers get tangled up, so please forgive the abbreviation to "p-")

Yes, that's the point. A p-mode sniffer could (realtively easily) find, identify, and reassemble your RTP conversation.

So, if your Vonage device is inside a LAN, like mine, someone could run a p-mode adapter in your LAN, with the appropriate capture software, and reassemble all RTP (or other) conversations.

At that point, Vonage encryption would be of benefit, but of course simply securing your network against some unauthorized person running a sniffer on the LAN would be just as effective, and a lot more possible. Wink

Once the packets go out over your modem, they become harder and harder to intercept simplty due to the overwhelming AMOUNT of packets, and of course the unpredictability of routing. Your ISP could intercept them using various means, including MAC spooling or sniffing on their network, of course.

The next point of concern would be the Voip remote end, where all the packets come together again. Then, assuming it's not a Vonage-to-Vonage call, the call goes over the POTS network, which can be tapped.

But, again, if I really (in theory) wanted to hear your phone conversations, I'd bug your actual telephone, tap into your home wiring, listen in on known cordless frequencies, etc. All of them would be easier than trying to tap into your LAN.

_________________
Comcast Cable (3m down / 256k up) -> Linksys BEFCMU10 v2 (DOCSIS 1.0) -> WRT54G v4 ("Tomato" firmware) -> the rest of my network including a WRTP54G (Firmware: 5.01.04)
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jmpage2
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Producer wrote:
Np navydavy2001. no offense taken, its hard to offend me on a forum anyways.

NateHoy, out of curiosity, are you saying you can sniff all VIOP traffic going from one computer on the lan to the Internet from another computer on the lan? I was just saying if the source computer is infected then a virus would be the problem.

I realize you can spoof the mac,capturing more traffic, but I thought that caused problems on linksys switches. I know there could be more factors involved here, but I am pretty sure you can't sniff other traffic on a switched network in general unless you use a promiscuous mode. You will see the headers, but thats about it.


A computer infected with a virus has nothing to do with anything related to sniffing out a Vonage call. Your PC is not involved in the traffic and unless someone has created some super virus to put your PC NIC into promiscious mode AND turn it into a packet sniffer AND have a way to retrieve that data AND you have a hub (not switched connection) between your Vonage adapter and your PC then a virus isn't going to do anything.

Many more things as others have indicated would need to be checked out before you even considered a PC on the network to somehow be a culprit.

And for the record, it's Voice over Internet Protocol "VoIP", not VIOP, you'd think a CCIE would know that.
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