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Post new topic   Reply to topic  Vonage® VoIP Forum - Vonage News, Reviews And Discussion » Vonage Forum Archive
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Julianp
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Joined: Jun 03, 2006
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

MrMark wrote:
It’s too bad that I/we don’t have access to the perfect test, but right now, PingPlotter seems to be giving me the best picture of any of the testing options that I have available to me. The MySpeed test may use internal information or criteria that PingPlotter does not, but since that information is not presented to me, all I can tell is that my connection tests badly. I really need a tool that will lead me to a solution, rather than just reporting that there is an unknown problem.

Whatever the cause of the packet loss, tracing to 64.210.19.18 is problematic if only because of the fact that there are so many packets being lost that it makes the graph hard to read! Is there no better destination to trace to?

If I set PingPlotter to use ICMP packets, that seems to eliminate the packet loss problem at the destination, but if I am trying to test for UDP traffic, I’m not sure what that proves. Pinging from a command line returns similar results.

The default “acceptable delay” is 200 ms, but it can be configured to show whatever one wants it to show. My average round-trip on the 205.234.111 server trace was only 59 ms whereas the trace to the Vonage server averaged 103 ms. It is true that there were some delays on the first hop but I don’t think it’s fair to say that this indicates an ISP problem any more than it would be fair to say that the Vonage server is dropping 65 percent of the packets. The fact that successive hops do not show any significant errors or delays indicates to me that the router simply does not always respond to the pings in as timely a manner as I would hope. Admittedly, there is no way to say for sure with the server dropping so many packets, but it seems to me that most of the delay and errors occurred at the final destination, since that is the boundary where the average round trip time gained 37 ms. That is one reason that it would be much better to trace to a server that is more responsive.

I don’t know what 4.71.12.17 is, but apparently it’s part of Level3.net. My interpretation of the results is that most of the delay in this trace (other than the Vonage server) is within the level3 network. I’m not sure if that’s Roadrunner’s fault or not and I would not know who to call to gripe about it.

I followed your link, but I am not familiar with that software, and I have to admit that I did not understand exactly what I was looking at. My only comment would be that although I can certainly see that the performance suffers at certain times, I cannot see the source of the problem…you may have access to more information that is not presented in the linked page, but I, personally, would not be able to say that the ISP is the source of the problem by looking at this information.


In regards to the speed test the deatiled audit report of the test provides the definitive information that is geared to resolving any prolems. I know full audit report is huge in size and you need a PHD degree to anayze it but it is a very granular audit of the TCP activity at a 1ms second clock resolution. If you are suffering it is worth spending some time with this it will quickly highlight throttling versus congestion issues. Also the RTT reported in the audit is a true application level RTT and does not invoke TTL expired or ICMP techniques. The QoS metric, for me, is the most important measure of quality issuesoverall, yes Jitter is specific to the test but QoS is a grading measure if the consistency, and for any real-time application to operate well consistency is paramount.

If the packetloss dissapears when switchinging ICMP from UDP then the packetloss is as a result of the UDP TTL expired handling and should be largely ignored. You might find that if you extend the timeout to 8000 ms (or more) that the packet loss drops dramatically when tracing with UDP. It would further validate this theory.

Going back to basics, the purpose of the ping initially UDP or otherwise is to build a baseline. To avoid the UDP TTL issue I would use ICMP. What you want to plot is the end location RTT consistently over a period of time. 59ms is good and when you are having difficulty this should be the first reference check.

Sorry about all the typos, no time to proof read.
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MrMark
Vonage Forum Senior
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Joined: Apr 06, 2004
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Julianp wrote:
In regards to the speed test the deatiled audit report of the test provides the definitive information that is geared to resolving any prolems. I know full audit report is huge in size...

I have not seen this huge report...how would one see that information?


Julianp wrote:
...and you need a PHD degree to anayze it...

Sadly, I do not have that PHD, so who will analyze it for me?


Julianp wrote:
...but it is a very granular audit of the TCP activity at a 1ms second clock resolution. If you are suffering it is worth spending some time with this it will quickly highlight throttling versus congestion issues. Also the RTT reported in the audit is a true application level RTT and does not invoke TTL expired or ICMP techniques. The QoS metric, for me, is the most important measure of quality issuesoverall, yes Jitter is specific to the test but QoS is a grading measure if the consistency, and for any real-time application to operate well consistency is paramount...

I have no doubt that all you say is true, but I simply do not have the skills or relationships with these bandwidth providers to find a solution to any such problem that I may have. And I do not want to lose sight of the fact that through multiple "bad" test results during Voip phone calls, we have not been able to correlate the bad results to bad voice quality. After all that has been said, I still believe that a Voip test should reflect the results that one has with actual Voip use.

Julianp wrote:
If the packetloss dissapears when switchinging ICMP from UDP then the packetloss is as a result of the UDP TTL expired handling and should be largely ignored. You might find that if you extend the timeout to 8000 ms (or more) that the packet loss drops dramatically when tracing with UDP. It would further validate this theory.

I have no reason to doubt what you are saying. All I'm saying is that I would like to trace to a server that is more responsive to my testing.

Julianp wrote:
Going back to basics, the purpose of the ping initially UDP or otherwise is to build a baseline. To avoid the UDP TTL issue I would use ICMP. What you want to plot is the end location RTT consistently over a period of time. 59ms is good and when you are having difficulty this should be the first reference check.

And yet, even as you say that the 59 ms PingPlotter trace was good, the MySpeed test was showing that it was bad. That is a good example of the kind of discrepancy that I cannot resolve in my mind.

Julianp wrote:
Sorry about all the typos, no time to proof read.

Oh no problem...it seems readable enough!
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cdp1276
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Joined: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I ran this test in both IE and Seamonkey and I get the lines back but before it posts full data it crashes both my IE & Seamonkey browsers. Windows Online Crash shows it as a Sun Java issue. Is this Voip speed test very specific to one version of J2EE?
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Julianp
Vonage Forum Junior
Vonage Forum Junior


Joined: Jun 03, 2006
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

cdp1276 wrote:
I ran this test in both IE and Seamonkey and I get the lines back but before it posts full data it crashes both my IE & Seamonkey browsers. Windows Online Crash shows it as a Sun Java issue. Is this Voip speed test very specific to one version of J2EE?


No, the speed test should run with any fairly recent Sun Java version (1.3,1.4,1.5). Obviously the latest version is recommended (1.5_06 the last time I looked). What version are you running? The fact that it affects both browsers would indicate a possible Java install issue. I have seen this on platforms where there are many different java versions installed. Depending on your Java support needs it might be advisable to uninstall and reinstall Java to see if that resolves the problem.
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Steve48
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 4777

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I see Trowski's famous sticky post listing the things to post when you're having a problem has been changed to eliminate the reference to www.testyourvoip.com and instead point to the new forum test. I personally would like to see comparison data from both for awhile. What do other people think?

I'm also having some concerns about consistency of results with the new test. For example, I just got these results:

Speed test statistics
---------------------
Download speed: 6630008 bps
Upload speed: 490560 bps
Quality of service: 97 %
Download test type: socket
Upload test type: socket
Maximum download pause: 94 ms
Average download pause: 12 ms
Minimum round trip time to server: 34 ms
Average round trip time to server: 35 ms

Voip test statistics
--------------------
Jitter: you --> server: 5.1 ms
Jitter: server --> you: 578.3 ms
Packet loss: you --> server: 0.0 %
Packet loss: server --> you: 26.4 %
Packet discards: 0.0 %
Packets out of order: 0.0 %
Number of supported Voip lines: 6
Estimated MOS score: 4.0

How could I have a packet loss from the server to me of 26.4% and still get an estimated score of 4.0 and QoS of 97%?

Added:

I've also had problems with Firefox crashing during or just after a test. Is anyone else having issues with Firefox?

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Steve Gray
Orlando, FL
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Steve48
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 4777

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Here's another test result that I just got, after one Firefox crash:

Speed test statistics
---------------------
Download speed: 6795264 bps
Upload speed: 490560 bps
Quality of service: 99 %
Download test type: socket
Upload test type: socket
Maximum download pause: 63 ms
Average download pause: 12 ms
Minimum round trip time to server: 35 ms
Average round trip time to server: 36 ms

Voip test statistics
--------------------
Jitter: you --> server: 4.9 ms
Jitter: server --> you: 4956.3 ms
Packet loss: you --> server: 0.0 %
Packet loss: server --> you: 86.5 %
Packet discards: 0.0 %
Packets out of order: 0.0 %
Number of supported Voip lines: 6
Estimated MOS score: 4.0

Here I'm getting QoS of 99%, an estimated MOS score of 4.0, and packet loss from the server to me of 86.5%(!!). The packet loss clearly seems to be related to a jitter from server to me 4956 ms! This is despite pauses and round trip times in the tens of ms.

What am I doing wrong here? These numbers just don't add up.

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Steve Gray
Orlando, FL
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scerruti
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Feb 05, 2005
Posts: 1424
Location: Carlsbad, CA (finally)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Steve48 wrote:

I've also had problems with Firefox crashing during or just after a test. Is anyone else having issues with Firefox?


I had issues with Firefox intermittently crashing while running the test:

Firefox 1.5.0.4
Java 1.4.2 (no _05)
Microsoft Windows XP SP2 Media Center Edition

This was on my wife's fairly new Gateway laptop. I upgraded Java to the latest version (the crash was happening in the Java Virtual Machine) and the problem went away.

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Stephen P. Cerruti (ISP: TWC)
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Picsman
Full Forum Member
Full Forum Member


Joined: Mar 05, 2006
Posts: 48
Location: USA Middle left coast

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

No problems with Voip speed test here:

- Firefox: 1.5.0.4
- Java: 1.5.0_06-b05
- OS: WinXP Pro - SP2 fully patched
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Steve48
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 4777

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

scerruti wrote:

I had issues with Firefox intermittently crashing while running the test:

Firefox 1.5.0.4
Java 1.4.2 (no _05)
Microsoft Windows XP SP2 Media Center Edition

This was on my wife's fairly new Gateway laptop. I upgraded Java to the latest version (the crash was happening in the Java Virtual Machine) and the problem went away.


Thanks for the info. Any thoughts on the inconsistent results that I've been getting, i.e., good scores with huge packet discards?

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Steve Gray
Orlando, FL
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dconnor
Site Admin
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Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Posts: 2263
Location: The Beach

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Steve48 wrote:
scerruti wrote:

I had issues with Firefox intermittently crashing while running the test:

Firefox 1.5.0.4
Java 1.4.2 (no _05)
Microsoft Windows XP SP2 Media Center Edition

This was on my wife's fairly new Gateway laptop. I upgraded Java to the latest version (the crash was happening in the Java Virtual Machine) and the problem went away.


Thanks for the info. Any thoughts on the inconsistent results that I've been getting, i.e., good scores with huge packet discards?


PM Julianp (he wrote the program) with this link and ask him to look at your scores, he is very good at analyzing results.

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