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HildBeft Posted:
You can recollect
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massrman Posted:
The devices are
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massrman Posted:
Hi these are most
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Has anyone setup a
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enodo
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Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

blakadher wrote:
enodo wrote:
Again, what was supplied by the phone companies to the government were the two phone numbers and the length of the call. If you call that "anonymized", you aren't using the term the way the rest of us do. A phone number is most certainly personally identifiable information.

In case you want to know a name given a phone number, just go here:

http://www.anywho.com/rl.html

Or let me just ask you: what do you think the word means?

It means that no individually identifiable information was provided as required by the Telecommunications Act of 1934 (amended). Of course if contained phone numbers or there wouldn't be much point to doing any data analysis now would there?


OK, we agree that the phone numbers were included. I am not arguing that the program is against that act - IANAL - and I have no idea what law this program might have been against. The point is that it's wrong to call the data set "anonymized" just because the names weren't attached when the data was turned over.

I can't find the precise text of the Telecom Act, but here's for example how the Spy Act (designed to keep spyware on your computer from finding out who you are) defines it:

(Full bill here: http://icreport.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:4:./temp/~c109RaKPXH:: relevant section here: http://icreport.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:4:./temp/~c109RaKPXH:e28588: )

Quote:
(13) PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE INFORMATION-

(A) IN GENERAL- The term `personally identifiable information' means the following information, to the extent only that such information allows a living individual to be identified from that information:

(i) First and last name of an individual.

(ii) A home or other physical address of an individual, including street name, name of a city or town, and zip code.

(iii) An electronic mail address.

(iv) A telephone number.

(v) A social security number, tax identification number, passport number, driver's license number, or any other government-issued identification number.

(vi) A credit card number.

(vii) Any access code, password, or account number, other than an access code or password transmitted by an owner or authorized user of a protected computer to the intended recipient to register for, or log onto, a Web page or other Internet service or a network connection or service of a subscriber that is protected by an access code or password.

(viii) Date of birth, birth certificate number, or place of birth of an individual, except in the case of a date of birth transmitted or collected for the purpose of compliance with the law.


This is what most people would mean when they say that data was "personally identifyable". As you say. the program would be pretty useless if the data didn't allow the NSA to identify someone they thought was suspicious.

blakadher wrote:


If I put my phone number into anywho.com guess what I get?

Quote:
Unable to return results...


Reason: No listings were found.

* We searched on ####### in 360 however; we could not find any listings to display.

If you truly care about your privacy and don't want your number to show up on services like that get an unlisted number.


Yes, that public DB doesn't contain unlisted numbers (or cell phones). However, you can rest assured that the NSA knows the full list of numbers. Even local police departments have that.
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maryjane
Vonage Forum Evangelist
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Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 409
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

We are in the "Big Brother is Watching and Listening Era" Nothing can stop what has been and always will be happening. Technology has enabled this and will keep advancing. Like it or not, its a fact.

I do not like the fact that my call records could be analyzed.

Yet I would want the gov. to keep a watch out for any terrorist activity.

How else could the gov. gain information? Ask for permission to have this information collected and analyzed.

This is a tough one I cherish my privacy and I cherish the Safety for all.

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VonageTPA
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 1715
Location: Florida (usually)

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I think you should all be aware that the phone companies have been SELLING your calling records to others for several years -- this should bother you more than the current NSA crap, as there is no recourse/accountability in the private sector as there (marginally) is in gov't.

Do a Google search for "Customer Proprietary Network Information" and you'll get to see all of the details.

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maryjane
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Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 409
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

VonageTPA wrote:
I think you should all be aware that the phone companies have been SELLING your calling records to others for several years -- this should bother you more than the current NSA crap, as there is no recourse/accountability in the private sector as there (marginally) is in gov't.

Do a Google search for "Customer Proprietary Network Information" and you'll get to see all of the details.


Yes this has been going on for years... If anyone bothered to read all the fine print, and the only recourse is to cancel which is why I did and signed up for Vonage..

.. I was one who did not read the fine print.

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dconnor
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Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Posts: 2263
Location: The Beach

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Not having anythig to hide an cause problems Reply with quote Back to top

bigmacnc wrote:
...One I have is why is Empire State Building still standing since it was hit by a B 52 in the late 40's or early 50's destroying just a few floors...


The Empire State Building was not hit by a B52.

The Empire State Building was hit on July 28th, 1945 by a relatively small (they can land on aircraft carriers) and slow flying B25 which was out of fuel and lost.




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csnet
Vonage Forum Senior
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Joined: Sep 17, 2005
Posts: 86
Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

oz_80 wrote:
It is not a lack of familiarity that we, worrywarts, portray. It's a lack of acceptance that the loss of privacy is inevitable. To submit to the unconstitutional usurping of our privacy, by a government seeking to destroy everything we were founded on, is to say that we do not recognize our inherent rights of life, LIBERTY, and happiness. The government, whether Federal or State, has no right to monitor the citizens of the U.S. without reasonable suspicion of a crime. They are using fear from the "terrorist" threat to convince Americans to relinquish their rights without question.

If people do not actively fight the government's imposition on our freedom now, while we have the hope of doing so we will very soon lose that chance.

The preservation of our freedom is the most noble and justifiable basis for dissent and revolution we, as private individuals, could possibly have. As Thomas Jefferson, one of the primary authors of the Constitution, said over and over again:

"Whenever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas
Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.

"It [is] inconsistent with the principles of civil liberty, and contrary to the natural rights of the other members of the society, that any body of men therein should have authority to enlarge their own powers... without restraint." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Allowance
Bill, 1778.


Excellent post. The protection and defense of our Constitution is an excellent measure of patriotism. Vonage's decision not to turn over our call records is to be applauded.

Benjamin Franklin said "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. "

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review.

Here's what Paul Craig Roberts says about "The Real Assault on America":
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13070.htm

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kamnet
Vonage Forum Master
Vonage Forum Master


Joined: Sep 12, 2005
Posts: 229
Location: Mt. Sterling, KY

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

mbkerk wrote:
I went on the assumtion that someone in the NSA knew Achmed was a terrorist.


The problem here is that NSA doesn't even know who the next Achmed is - that is why they went around asking for this information, hoping that by sifting through enough information that Achmed will be sloppy and reveal himself.

Again, that's fishing, and that's illegal. If they knew who Achmed was, and already had information that he was a terrorist, they wouldn't need to sift through everybody else's phone data, just the ones that talk to Achmed the terrorist (and not another Achmed). A simple trip to the courts and they'll get their subpoena of the records.

Quote:
As far as both parties being in the USA... thats fine with me too, if either one or both of the parties are known sworn enemies of the the United States... Say a Sami Al-Arian type is regularly conversing with a Timothy McVeigh type. Both of them eventually turned out to be sworn enemies of the country. Had someone paid a little closer attention to McVeigh, perhaps another building may still be standing!


Except again, the problem is NSA doesn't know who the sworn enemies are. They're looking for information on the people they don't know even exist yet.

Quote:
And your point is? What is so different about things now? These people are living among us, though maybe one could change the "RIGHT IN OUR HOMES" line to RIGHT IN OUR HOMELAND.


My point is - Franklin's opinion on trading freedom for security would not change. When you give away your sovergnity, then your security is only as good as your new master wishes it to be. Franklin's point is that the business of the security of the nation is up to each and every individual who values their freedom, just like it was in 1776. If you are willing to trade your freedom, then you have already given up everything else.


kamnet wrote:
I'm also sure that a large part of the inspiration of this quote came from the fact that too many individuals are too apathetic to what the government is or is not doing.


Quote:
If the NSA can stop just one attack by putting a couple of phone numbers together, more power to them.


Except there is no evidence that NSA, DHS, FBI, CIA or any other agency has been any more successful using this method than using other methods which do not violate our privacy or the law. Perhaps if there was solid evidence, the public might be a little softer on the practice. Not that I would approve, but instead such activites and results make our government look inept and stupid.

Quote:
If I find out that they have me on a watch list because I talk to my brother for hours on end at night, and they don't like our views on school vouchers, then we have a problem! I have heard of no incident when someone has been harmed by the current practice. No complaints have been publicized! The left wing media would be all over such a story in a heartbeat!


By the time you find out, it is WAY too late though.

Quote:
It is a pleasure debating you kamnet... you are obviously an intelligent individual, and while our views are very different, you can make your point without resorting to name calling and personal attacks. I find that refreshing!


Thank you. Smile
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kamnet
Vonage Forum Master
Vonage Forum Master


Joined: Sep 12, 2005
Posts: 229
Location: Mt. Sterling, KY

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

oz_80 wrote:
They are using fear from the "terrorist" threat to convince Americans to relinquish their rights without question.


It's the new McCarthyism. Hopefully we Americans have learned enough from the last decade to see through such blinds and quickly reign it in. Of course that's always hard to do when the wounds are still fresh, but come 09/11/2006 it will be five years. The wounds are healing, we're moving on, and we're going to grow tired of the government crying wolf in this case.
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mohajir
New Forum Member
New Forum Member


Joined: May 17, 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:27 am    Post subject: NSA collecting call records Reply with quote Back to top

tommy13v wrote:
Why is it a scandal? and who would you go to anyway?


It is a scandal, because the collection of these records is a blatant violation of the 4th amendment, which reads "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." If the NSA has a legitimate reason to collect the call records of any individual, they should go to a judge and make an oath or affirmation to that effect.

One could switch their service to SunRocket or any of the other internet phone service providers who (liek Vonage) do not provide these records to the NSA.

It is important to note that Quest, a "traditional" service provider, declined to provide these records and the NSA did nothing to compel them to do so, since they knew their request was unconstitutional and unenforceable.
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kamnet
Vonage Forum Master
Vonage Forum Master


Joined: Sep 12, 2005
Posts: 229
Location: Mt. Sterling, KY

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

AT&T and BellSouth have now been added to the lawsuits. BellSouth denied handing over any information on Monday, and I believe AT&T made a similar declaration last week.
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