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rdstoll
Full Forum Member
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Joined: Dec 29, 2005
Posts: 63
Location: Des Plaines, IL

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Movado wrote:
I think that large bandwith hogs ( and competitors) will in the future have to fork up the dough or run their own lines. Rightfully so I must say though.


This seems to be the direction that ISPs are going but I disagree with this approach. I think the solution ultimately has to focus on a business model similar to electricity, gas or water: the more you use, the more you pay. Charging the likes of Google, Blockbuster, and Vonage a "surcharge" for using their pipes is a disaster because it invites unsavory practices like blocking a sites traffic and giving certain vendors priority. How does this help consumers choose which services to use? What 'guarantee' will they have that if they get a service, they will be able to use it with their ISP. Seems to me that this process would balkanize the broadband market.

However, if you had a system similar to gas or electricity, the consumer could be charged a flat per/MB rate, and however much that consumer uses is how much they are charged. That way, there is no ambiguity from the consumer standpoint in being able to pay for a service (like movies over the 'net) without having to worry that Comcast or SBC has subjugated the traffic of that service to others. This might cost some users more, but it doesn't make sense that I pay the same $30/month for my broadband that allows me to download gobs of music and video, while my 60 year-old neighbor pays the same $30 to send a few emails to their grandkids.
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BigDaveB
Full Forum Member
Full Forum Member


Joined: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

rdstoll wrote:
This might cost some users more, but it doesn't make sense that I pay the same $30/month for my broadband that allows me to download gobs of music and video, while my 60 year-old neighbor pays the same $30 to send a few emails to their grandkids.


Your 60-year-old neighbor doesn't need broadband!

I'm not a fan of measured broadband service and believe it will stifle the potential for broadband services. Ultimately "they" will probably find a way to force it on us.

Assuming that's the case, are you going to feel the same way you do today then they fail to supply the advertised bandwidth on demand?
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VonageTPA
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 1715
Location: Florida (usually)

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Movado wrote:
Most definitely. Google is also a target. I think that large bandwith hogs ( and competitors) will in the future have to fork up the dough or run their own lines


Voip is hardly a "bandwidth hog." Peer-to-Peer/filesharing apps absolutely chew up all bandwidth allocated to them. Someone running Kazaa/Emule/etc is pushing 100KB/second, Voip pushes 9KB..

_________________
ISP: Varies depending where I'm at.
Vonage: Linksys RTP300
Router: IPCop 1.4.10
Phones: various
Total calls since Jul 24, 2005: 4,794 calls
Total Minutes since Jul 24, 2005: 25,552 minutes
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BigDaveB
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Full Forum Member


Joined: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I am trying my best to be helpful and patient but my patience is wearing thin. Honestly, I don't care that much whether this is a Comcast issue or a Vonage issue beyond the implications of ISPs interfering with content or not providing the advertised bandwidth or other service provider not providing their advertised service.

For practical purposes my Vonage phone has been poor to totally unusable during normal work hours for at least two weeks and intermittently prior to that but is generally working fine at night.

I have theories as to what is going on that I will keep to myself until I have more proof. For now my position is this: Vonage is not providing me with the service I am paying for and Vonage needs to take whatever actions necessary to resolve the "technical" issues, including potentially purchasing more bandwidth or resolving their dispute with Comcast or AT&T.


Pinging vonage.com [216.115.22.200] with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=48ms TTL=108
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=52ms TTL=108
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=60ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=46ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=63ms TTL=108
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=72ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=48ms TTL=108
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=50ms TTL=108
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=50ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=50ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=48ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=56ms TTL=108
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=47ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=49ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=49ms TTL=108
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=49ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=53ms TTL=108
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 216.115.22.200:
Packets: Sent = 37, Received = 17, Lost = 20 (54% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 46ms, Maximum = 72ms, Average = 24ms
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VonageTPA
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 1715
Location: Florida (usually)

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Dave, there's only so much Vonage can do... You're asking the gas station to come to your car, rather than the other way around. In this case, it's up to Comcast to get your car to the gas station. Yes, you've already paid for the fuel, but Comcast is the road system you're using to pick it up.

What does a traceroute to Vonage show?

_________________
ISP: Varies depending where I'm at.
Vonage: Linksys RTP300
Router: IPCop 1.4.10
Phones: various
Total calls since Jul 24, 2005: 4,794 calls
Total Minutes since Jul 24, 2005: 25,552 minutes
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BigDaveB
Full Forum Member
Full Forum Member


Joined: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

VonageTPA wrote:
Dave, there's only so much Vonage can do... You're asking the gas station to come to your car, rather than the other way around. In this case, it's up to Comcast to get your car to the gas station. Yes, you've already paid for the fuel, but Comcast is the road system you're using to pick it up.

What does a traceroute to Vonage show?


I'm not totally buying your analogy here, but for the sake of argument: You own a gas station to which the city is closing the road all the time. How many dollars do you suppose I'm going to put on a pre-pay card with your station? Do you think that I as a consumer am going to argue incessantly over who's to blame or go to another station?

Seriously, I posted another thread with all the details asked for in the sticky thread and it was closed with a reference to this thread. I am trying to be helpful! Meanwhile I have a job search and financial transactions being complicated by unusable daytime phone service while the players point at each other.

Here's my traceroute which I have posted multiple times:

Tracing route to vonage.com [216.115.22.200]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 * * * Request timed out.
2 13 ms 14 ms 11 ms ge-1-37-ur01.wchicago.il.chicago.comcast.net [68
.86.119.65]
3 15 ms 13 ms 13 ms 68.87.230.105
4 14 ms 13 ms 31 ms 68.87.230.250
5 17 ms 16 ms 16 ms 12.125.194.13
6 18 ms 20 ms 19 ms tbr2-p012001.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.123.4.230]
7 18 ms 16 ms 16 ms ggr2-p3120.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.123.6.69]
8 17 ms 17 ms 26 ms att-gw.chi.gblx.net [192.205.32.126]
9 * * 49 ms Vonage-Holdings-Corp-Vonage-Toll-Free-NWRK.ge-2-
3-0.403.ar1.NYC1.gblx.net [64.210.19.18]
10 * * * Request timed out.
11 45 ms 45 ms * 216.115.22.200
12 49 ms * 49 ms 216.115.22.200

Trace complete.

I will gladly attempt any testing you suggest. Just don't ask me to "clear my cookies" or other such nonsense as we see from first-tier support at certain carriers.

Meanwhile I expect my carriers to do whatever necessary to resolve the issue and provide the service. It would be helpful if there were open communication on this forum as to exactly what the problems are and how they are being addressed, along with regular updates.

If Vonage needs it members to apply political pressure, we first need reliable information as to exactly what is occurring and why.


Last edited by BigDaveB on Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wanderlei
New Forum Member
New Forum Member


Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:11 pm    Post subject: Comcast blocking traffic or what's up? Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not ususally home during the day, so I didn't even know this was going on - but I'm home today and this is ridiculous! We can't even use the phone because we're breaking up for everyone we talk to, so we have to use our cell phone minutes.

Here's what 2 tracerts looks like... I notice not every trace comes back from the Vonage domain which correlates with timing out on over 25-33% of pings (I have the same result):

>tracert www.vonage.com -w 200

Tracing route to www.vonage.com [216.115.22.200]

1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 10 ms 9 ms 9 ms 68.86.117.229
4 12 ms 12 ms 9 ms 68.87.230.45
5 11 ms 10 ms 9 ms 68.87.231.89
6 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 68.87.230.250
7 12 ms 13 ms 11 ms 12.125.194.13
8 13 ms 16 ms 13 ms tbr1-p011901.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.123.4.226]
9 12 ms 14 ms 14 ms ggr2-p310.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.123.6.65]
10 15 ms 14 ms 14 ms att-gw.chi.gblx.net [192.205.32.126]
11 * 234 ms * Vonage-Holdings-Corp-Vonage-Toll-Free-NWRK.ge-2-
3-0.403.ar1.NYC1.gblx.net [64.210.19.18]
12 * * * Request timed out.
13 * * 44 ms 216.115.22.200

Trace complete.

C:\Documents and Settings\Mika>tracert www.vonage.com -w 200

Tracing route to www.vonage.com [216.115.22.200]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 3 ms 192.168.1.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 10 ms 11 ms 9 ms 68.86.117.229
4 12 ms 10 ms 11 ms 68.87.230.45
5 9 ms 11 ms 11 ms 68.87.231.89
6 12 ms 11 ms 13 ms 68.87.230.250
7 13 ms 13 ms 11 ms 12.125.194.13
8 17 ms 16 ms 15 ms tbr1-p011901.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.123.4.226]
9 13 ms 14 ms 11 ms ggr2-p310.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.123.6.65]
10 14 ms 15 ms 14 ms att-gw.chi.gblx.net [192.205.32.126]
11 * 39 ms 37 ms Vonage-Holdings-Corp-Vonage-Toll-Free-NWRK.ge-2-
3-0.403.ar1.NYC1.gblx.net [64.210.19.18]
12 * * * Request timed out.
13 * 47 ms 45 ms 216.115.22.200
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BigDaveB
Full Forum Member
Full Forum Member


Joined: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

FYI:

Today's service status annoucement seems to have been taken down. Meanwhile:

Pinging vonage.com [216.115.22.200] with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=54ms TTL=112
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=50ms TTL=112
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=46ms TTL=112
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=46ms TTL=112
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=55ms TTL=112
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=46ms TTL=112
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=51ms TTL=112
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=52ms TTL=112
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=56ms TTL=112
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=51ms TTL=112
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=49ms TTL=112
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=49ms TTL=112
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=51ms TTL=112
Reply from 216.115.22.200: bytes=32 time=53ms TTL=112

Ping statistics for 216.115.22.200:
Packets: Sent = 28, Received = 14, Lost = 14 (50% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 46ms, Maximum = 56ms, Average = 25ms

Like most other times, this occurs simultaneously with problems accessing secure.vonage.com via browser. Web pages are slow to display or a timing out.
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nikwax
Vonage Forum Junior
Vonage Forum Junior


Joined: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 26
Location: Portland, Oregon

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

same issue here, my Vonage service is unusable during daytime hours. Vonage blames the AT&T backbone and suggests that I contact AT&T to have the latency taken out. Um, yeah, right, I'll get right on that. I'm shopping for another Voip provider.


meanwhile, what the heck is going on today? My router is having a fit : "Router is synchronizing services. Please wait a moment."

_________________
Portland, Oregon
Comcast cable 16Mb/4Mb
SMC8014 -> VDV21
-> Apple Airport Extreme-> Apple Airport Express->DirecTV Tivo and HR20-700
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NateHoy
Vonage Forum MVM
Vonage Forum <b>MVM</b>


Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 2257
Location: New England

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

nikwax wrote:
same issue here, my Vonage service is unusable during daytime hours. Vonage blames the AT&T backbone and suggests that I contact AT&T to have the latency taken out. Um, yeah, right, I'll get right on that. I'm shopping for another Voip provider.


Um, yeah, right, good luck.

Seriously, Voip depends on a high-speed and low-latency Internet connection between you and the other end of the conversation. If your connection is suffering from high latency (delays), then Vonage cannot re-assemble packets and make a decent call.

Here's a brief discussion of how it works, and how packet loss and discards hurt Voip services.

http://vonage.nmhoy.net/packetloss.html

Unfortunately, if your Internet connection is laggy (and you'd never notice the kinds of lags we're talking about on web surfing, they are measured in tenths of a second), Voip isn't going to work well for you no matter who you choose.

If AT&T cannot fix your connection, Vonage may be able to increase the packet wait time (adding a delay to the turnaround time, which is in itself annoying).

_________________
Comcast Cable (3m down / 256k up) -> Linksys BEFCMU10 v2 (DOCSIS 1.0) -> WRT54G v4 ("Tomato" firmware) -> the rest of my network including a WRTP54G (Firmware: 5.01.04)
My Vonage Self-Help Guides: http://vonage.nmhoy.net
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