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emuman100
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Why am I not allowed to manually provision? Reply with quote Back to top

Really, WHY EXACTLY won't Vonage let me provision my own Voip equipment? Why is this such a crime? Why is this so sinfull? Can any of you tell me why? And no, I really don't want to hear "because it's in the TOS" I don't want to hear that crap. I want to know the real reason. Why can't anyone tell me.

Why does Vonage have the right to control a piece of equipment I LEGALLY own? I want to manually provision Line 1 to Vonage and Line 2 to my PBX. Now, put your thinking caps on.

HOW DOES THIS HURT VONAGE!?!? Why can't I provision my cisco IP phone to work with Vonage? How does this hurt Vonage or or cause them, their system, or their bank account in anyway? Telling me that "it's in the TOS" will not make me happy.

This is where I can win a court case. Legally, I should be the one to give permission for Vonage to provision my adapter. I should be the one to give permission to change passwords on MY adapter and I should be notified if Vonage changes passwords on MY adapter. I SHOULD have the right to know MY username and password on MY phone adapter. I don't give two tomatos about what the TOS says. Anything can be put in the TOS, it doesn't mean it's lawfull or right. If "Vonage has the right to murder a member of your family" was in the TOS, would it be right? No.

Now, if I rented or borrowed the phone adapter from Vonage, then they can do what they want. But, they don't own it. I OWN IT! Provisioning the adapter myself or using a cisco ip phone doesn't hurt Vonage, doesn't hurt their bank account or their SIP servers, their NTP or STUN servers. It causes no harm whatsoever.

Why can't anyone just tell me why can't I provision my own Voip equipment? What harm does this cause? PLEASE TELL ME WHY!

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dconnor
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I can tell, but this will be my only post on the topic because I do not debate issues on my own forum.
I only lend assistance when/where I can. OK?

Vonage has elected to not go the API route for reasons of security, period.

They are protecting their intellectual property and network from being stolen.

Having met with Jeffrey Citron (an incredibly intellectual person and a gentlemen I will add) I can tell you that I do not believe to see a change in this policy, ever.

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scerruti
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

  1. Customer Support - By limiting the customer base to a small set of hardware and configurations the scripts and training required for customer support are greatly reduced.
  2. Network Control - The network is protected from improperly connected equipment.
  3. Control of Features - By limiting features though lock down of devices Vonage is able to assure revenue equal to expenses. Customers can not, for example, easily configure a PBX to allow their Vonage line to be used by multiple households.

Vonage markets and sells their service as a broadband replacement for traditional phone service. They offer certain features above and beyond that. They do not market their service as a SIP service that supports BYOD.

So you are wrong if you think that provisioning your own equipment doesn't represent a danger to Vonage. Secondly, you own the equipment, you can do anything you want with it. There was a thread some time ago about people being able to flash their equipment to an unlocked state. Just don't think that you can use it on Vonage's network once you have modified it because the secrets that Vonage is protecting inside the equipment are the passwords into Vonage's network.

Finally, you wouldn't stand a chance in court, the TOS that you so casually cast aside clearly states that modification of your equipment can result in the termination of your account, it does not say you can't do it, just that you can't do it and then continue to use Vonage's network.

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navydavy2001
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

WHY!!! WHY!!!

You people tell me WHY I can't be 8 feet tall! WHY?

I don't wanna hear no crap about "genetics."

WHY can't I just go into the closet and hang upside down with bricks in my hands?

Wait, what were we talking about? Eek

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KDWycha
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

WHY can I not stop using the throne tonight after 7 glasses of apple juice?!?! Rolling Eyes

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emuman100
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

scerruti,

You're wrong. What "unauthorized device" would cause harm to Vonage? You never told me this. Explain to me that with the open provisioning information with softphone is any different than the hidden encrypted provisioning information? How extactly is the softphone provision information any different? I'm waiting for an answer.

Vonage doesn't need to train me. I'm plenty intelligent enough to provision my own adapter. I purchased another Vonage PAP2, unlocked it, and use it on my asterisk server connected to a PTSN. It's how I use my vintage Western Electric phones on my PBX.

And, by law, I have every right to unlock a Vonage adapter if I damn well please. When I purchased it I was never presented with any license agreement, so legally, if I buy the adapter, I can do what ever I want with it. I really don't care if they lose revenue.

"By limiting features though lock down of devices Vonage is able to assure revenue equal to expenses." Forget this. If they removed their head from areas where they don't belong and done things the right way, they would have done things like other Voip providers. I'm interested in a company that treats me like a person, not a statistical risk due to it's overdrawn paranoia.

This is why I'll win in court. It doesn't matter what the TOS says. This is hurting the customer and isn't right.
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navydavy2001
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Then go fight in court and leave our board alone. We help fix people's Vonage, not **** about why this and why not that. Grow up. You don't like Vonage, then cancel. Go buy $10,000 worth of commercial Voip gear (i'd recommend Cisco CallManager ver 4, and some devices) and pay to connect yourself to POTS. Vonage is geared toward the home user, not the power user. Everyone knows that.


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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

emuman100 wrote:

And, by law, I have every right to unlock a Vonage adapter if I damn well please. When I purchased it I was never presented with any license agreement, so legally, if I buy the adapter, I can do what ever I want with it. I really don't care if they lose revenue.
[...]
This is why I'll win in court. It doesn't matter what the TOS says. This is hurting the customer and isn't right.


Correct. But Vonage doesn't state that you cannot unlock your device. They merely state that, once you do, you are not allowed to use it to connect to their servers any longer.

Vonage is going for the supposed "geek free" experience, which means they have an encrypted network that only works with their hardware, so they control the hardware/firmware that connects to their network. That's how they choose to do business.

There's no "sinful behavior" involved in wanting to unlock a device. However, they have made the business decision that their target market is people who do not mess with their adapters, but want an "out of the box" telephony experience. This means they got customized hardware and firmware, locked it down, encrypted it, modified the SIP protocol so only their devices could talk on their network.

Unlock away, m'friend. They are probably good SIP devices once they are unlocked. Then you have to find a provider that (as most SIP providers do) support unlocked "Bring your own box" configurations. Vonage is NOT one of them.

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bmetelsky
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Joined: Dec 20, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Then go to court. You sound like a very immature person. If you are so content in doing what you please then do it, as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. Why come to the forum here and whine?
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emuman100
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

NateHoy wrote:
Vonage is going for the supposed "geek free" experience, which means they have an encrypted network that only works with their hardware, so they control the hardware/firmware that connects to their network.


Everything they use is standard. Nothing is changed, nothing is modified. The Vonage PAP2 is automatically provisioned by Vonage according to the way the cisco admin guide tells them. The adapter is protected with passwords and provisioned with every way to prevent unlocking the device, do "user" firmware upgrades, change admin passwords, grabbing the key from the adapter to decrypt the configuration file on their TFTP, etc. They use nothing proprietary or special. They use T carriers to connect to the PTSN.

They got the price right, but other providers have decent prices to and allow me to manually provision. Nothing would pleasure me more to see Vonage at a loss.
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