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reebok
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

your calls are routed through NJ. boston is closest.

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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

rdstoll wrote:
NateHoy wrote:
OK, let's get some information gathered up, here.

First, go to www.testyourvoip.com and select "Boston"


NateHoy: Is there a reason to specify Boston when doing this test? I didn't see the original poster say that he was from Boston and I am going to run this test tonight, although I live in Chicago.

Thanks.


I think all the calls through Vonage get routed to their Internet presence in New Jersey.

Technically, you COULD pick ANY location, since you are really testing your "first hop" (your ISP connection). But, since Boston is closest to New Jersey, you would at least be looking in the same area if you choose Boston.

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Dansie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

First, to answer what I know about the above question, it seems like most people here would recommend that you not put the Vonage Router behind another Rotuer (that is if it is the true router, if it is the PAP2, then it HAS to be behind a router), either that or you need to turn off the router & firewall functions of the Vonage router, but I would just try taking your other router out of the equation.

Since I don't know much about upload/download speed and all this packet loss stuff either, could someone look at mine speed tests and let me know what they think?
I did the same test at testyourvoip.com from boston, here are my results.
From YOU to Boston:
Media Quality
MOS
4.3 / 5.0
(Best with G.711 is 4.4)

Degradation Sources
Codec 0.58 86.1%
Latency 0.00 0.0%
Packet Discards 0.06 9.1%
Packet Loss 0.03 4.6%
Codec G.711 (PCM at 64kbps,
20ms RTP payload,
80kbps IP BW)
Round-Trip
Latency 177 ms
Packet Discards 0.3%
Packet Loss 0.1%
Loss Periods
Min: 20 ms
Avg: 20 ms
Max: 20 ms
Random Loss
Jitter
Min: 0 ms
Avg: 5 ms
Max: 21 ms
Signaling Quality
Post-Dial Delay 109 ms
Call Setup Time 125 ms
Media Delay 281 ms

From Boston to YOU:
Media Quality
MOS
4.4 / 5.0
(Best with G.711 is 4.4)

Degradation Sources
Codec 0.58 100.0%
Latency 0.00 0.0%
Packet Discards 0.00 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.00 0.0%
Codec G.711 (PCM at 64kbps,
20ms RTP payload,
80kbps IP BW)
Round-Trip
Latency 177 ms
Packet Discards 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.0%
Loss Periods
Min: 0 ms
Avg: 0 ms
Max: 0 ms
No Loss
Jitter
Min: 4 ms
Avg: 6 ms
Max: 20 ms
Signaling Quality
Post-Pickup Delay 143 ms
Call Setup Time 144 ms
Media Delay 174 ms

What is it that we are looking at/for that will help prevent the choppy audio on their end? I get it during high traffic times, so I have been trying to setup QoS (but that is another post)
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Dansie -

Many might recommend putting the Vonage router up front, but let me assure you that I am NOT one of them. The QoS on the WRTP54G is so useless I had better results turning it OFF.

I put my WRTP54G behind a "real" WRT54G router, running aftermarket firmware, and the difference is like night and day.

As to your issue, well, your testyourvoip numbers are the kind of results that would make other people cry tears of joy if they could get them. Connections do NOT get much better than what you have there. If I could get those numbers, my new theme song would be "Oh, Sweet Mystery of Life, at Last I've Found Youuuuuuu..." Wink

Seriously... if you are having choppy audio only when traffic is high on your Internet connection, you can place it squarely at the feet of inadequate QoS, or a bad device, because your connection does not have a problem if that's a typical test for you.

To properly set up QoS:

1. Determine your upload bandwidth by doing a test like www.dslreports.com/stest
2. Go into your router's QoS, turn off automatic upstream bandwidth determination, and set it to about 95% of what your tested upstream bandwidth is. Be prepared to experiment with that number.
3. Set the MAC address of your Vonage device to HIGHEST, then set all other MAC addresses to LOW or MEDIUM depending on relative importance.

Do some test calls. If you find that the outgoing audio is perfect, up the "upload bandwidth" number a bit. Once things get a little choppy, lower the number to the highest number that works well, minus a few kbps.

And to anticipate your next question - no, you will not see manual upstream bandwidth OR MAC address QoS on a Vonage router (at least not on the RTP300/WRTP54G units. They try to determine upstream bandwidth automagically, and have no way of shaping traffic except a few clumsy port-based fields. The router cannot determine upstream bandwidth at all, few routers can, so QoS ends up being a waste of processor cycles.

Net result: If you want real QoS, you need a real router. The Vonage WRTP54G/RTP300 gizmos are nice little units, and do great voice, but as routers, no so much. I recommend the Linksys WRT54GL, loaded up with aftermarket firmware you can find at http://www.polarcloud.com/tofu/ - read the forums at www.linksysinfo.org and www.hyperwrt.org for (LOTS!) more information.

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Dansie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="NateHoy"]Many might recommend putting the Vonage router up front, but let me assure you that I am NOT one of them. The QoS on the WRTP54G is so useless I had better results turning it OFF.
quote]

That is what I meant, for him to put the WRTP54G behind a "real" router, but, he seems like the type that doesn't want to go to the "Technical" trouble. I think that he could try just bringing the WRTP54G in front first and give it a try, but to get REALLY good service, I agree that he will need to put a good router with QoS on the front and turn it off of on the WRTP54G. I ahve also heard that you should turn off the WRTP54G's firewall, no matter what. I am using the PAP2, so I don't have this problem.

I am glad to know that my numbers are good. At night, my neighborhood gets flooded with net traffic, I swear that every single person in my neighborhood is using Comcast and using P2P when I am trying to make a call.

I recently upgraded to 8mbps down/786kbps up because I do alot of freelance work from home and the upload helps with the Calls.

I recently just got a WT54GS (I first bought a WRT54G v.5 not knowing I couldn't load firmware) and I just need to put it on and try some different firmware on it. I would like to make the QoS so that when I am downloading or uploading big files to my contractors then everything goes smooth, but the second my wife picks up the phone she gets the bandwidth she needs.

My question is that you say to determine my QoS I should test my speed, but when? Like I said, if I tested it right now it would scream, but ifI tested it at 7:00PM, it would suffer, so probably I should do this at the worst traffic times.

Maybe my whole neighborhood is on Vonage!!!

Seriously though, thank you for QoS setup help, I needed a straight forward answer to that!
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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
My question is that you say to determine my QoS I should test my speed, but when? Like I said, if I tested it right now it would scream, but ifI tested it at 7:00PM, it would suffer, so probably I should do this at the worst traffic times.


Therein lies the problem.

If you set QoS upstream bandwidth too low, then you will artificially slow down your upstream connection when you don't have to. This is because the router will shape your traffic with the number you give as a target, and if you have a 20mbps upstream pipe and set upstream on the router to 1mbps, your router will only allow 1mbps.

If you set upstream too high, then QoS becomes useless, because the router is shaping traffic that ends up exceeding what your modem can handle, and you end up with a traffic overload just like not having QoS, with the added problem of overhead from QoS itself.

Understand that nothing on this planet is going to help you if your bandwidth bottleneck is beyond your modem. Your ISP doesn't give a whit about what QoS you requested. QoS will *ONLY* help you if the bottleneck is before your modem, which I assumed it was.

In my case, in addition to Vonage, my LAN has two simultaneous VPN connections on a corporate laptop, plus a machine that's running P2P 24/7. I can fix my problem with QoS, because my problem is caused by equipment on my premises. I thought you had a similar problem with other computer users in your home, so I recommended QoS.

If your bandwidth problems are not on your own LAN, it sounds more like your neighborhood has been oversold, and you aren't getting anywhere near the bandwidth you have been promised. If a 768k upload connection has problems accepting a 90k upstream transmission, that's a problem. I'd call your ISP and start asking for at service guarantee of at least 50% of the bandwidth you are paying for...

When I started with Adelphia a few years ago at a previous house, I'd get great bandwidth all day long, then 8PM would roll around and I'd get down to 300bps (0.3kbps) when I was lucky enough to be able to connect. Paying $50 a month for a 300-baud connection obviously isn't acceptable, so I called them every night when it happened. Eventually, after sending out 12 service techs to check line quality, they reluctantly agreed to send a tech out at 9:00 one night. He arrived, fiddled with settings on the cable modem, realized how horrifically oversold/underpowered the subdivision had become, said some naughty words, and walked out to our neighborhood trunk and twiddled with a filter or two. About 10 seconds and a modem reboot later, I had the full 3000/512 connection I had paid for, a one month credit on my bill, and an abject apology from Adelphia.

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Dansie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="NateHoy"]
Quote:
My question is that you say to determine my QoS I should test my speed, but when? Like I said, if I tested it right now it would scream, but ifI tested it at 7:00PM, it would suffer, so probably I should do this at the worst traffic times.

I'd call your ISP and start asking for at service guarantee of at least 50% of the bandwidth you are paying for...
quote]
This is great advise. I do think I still ahvea need for QoS. I would like to run P2P as often as I can, 24/7 would great, but now I am having to only run it during the wee hours of the night/morning. I also find that when I connect to my office comptuer over their VPN it swallows up all of my bandwidth, so I would like the QoS to help with that problem as well. I can't be connected and have a conversation with someone at the office, which is a waste of time.

I am going to call Comcast though, becasue at night the download has gone down to as slow as 1.5mbps, which when you are paying for 8 down is quite a change.
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BRadius
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

NateHoy wrote:
I put my WRTP54G behind a "real" WRT54G router, running aftermarket firmware, and the difference is like night and day.


Which aftermarket firmware have you used that's like night and day?
Using the stock 4.20 firmware, the QoS setttings (setup just like you describe) don't make much of a difference. I still think Vonage is having access-link issues on their end.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

BRadius wrote:
NateHoy wrote:
I put my WRTP54G behind a "real" WRT54G router, running aftermarket firmware, and the difference is like night and day.


Which aftermarket firmware have you used that's like night and day?
Using the stock 4.20 firmware, the QoS setttings (setup just like you describe) don't make much of a difference. I still think Vonage is having access-link issues on their end.


Take your pick...I use HyperWRT, and it made a tremendous difference when I was in a hotel. There are alot of them out there that have fully functioning QoS.

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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

BRadius wrote:
NateHoy wrote:
I put my WRTP54G behind a "real" WRT54G router, running aftermarket firmware, and the difference is like night and day.


Which aftermarket firmware have you used that's like night and day?
Using the stock 4.20 firmware, the QoS setttings (setup just like you describe) don't make much of a difference. I still think Vonage is having access-link issues on their end.


It's there in my sig. Wink

WRT54G V4, HyperWRT Tofu 12.

IF your problem is bandwidth being used on your own network, QoS can help you.

I'd do some testing with www.testyourvoip.com and www.dslreports.com/stest to see how good your connection really is. Try to do them on a dedicated computer.

If the Internet connection is good, then your problems are probably congestion, and it could be from your other computers. Use the results from dlsreports to tune your "upstream" QoS number.

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