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tweber
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Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:29 pm    Post subject: line noise when downloading - any ideas? Reply with quote Back to top

I've used Vonage for about a month. I'm set up with a Motorola VT1005 connected to port one on a Linksys WRT54Gs v3 using DD-WRT firmware v23 final. My real dl is 2400 ul is 400. I have QOS set up at 285 ul 2050 dl. I have my motorola set to premium using mac address, port 1 and its lan ip. I set my PC at bulk. I'm using SBC for dsl service.

I get very good results at testyourvoip and other dl speed tests. I have included testyourvoip at the end of this post.

I have one Vonage line with 2, two handset panasonic wireless 5.8 ghz phones connected.

Upload QOS works fine. People on the receiving end of my calls never report a problem.

My only problem occurs during ftp downloads. The qos limits my download speed whether or not I'm on the phone. But line noise when downloading is extreme.

I have read and read and read on these forums and at the linksysorg and dd-wrt forums. I haven't found anything that works. (BTW, I have tried using the bandwidth saving codecs with no improvement). So, I thought I'd give it a go here and see if anyone has any ideas. I can just not use ftp and truthfully this isn't a deal killer. I'd just like for Vonage to be working 100% right.

Thanks for any ideas.

Tom


MOS
4.4 / 5.0
(Best with G.711 is 4.4)


Degradation Sources
Codec 0.58 100.0%
Latency 0.00 0.0%
Packet Discards 0.00 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.00 0.0%
Codec G.711 (PCM at 64kbps,
20ms RTP payload,
80kbps IP BW)
Round-Trip
Latency 117 ms
Packet Discards 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.0%
Loss Periods
Min: 0 ms
Avg: 0 ms
Max: 0 ms
No Loss
Jitter
Min: 0 ms
Avg: 5 ms
Max: 13 ms
Signaling Quality
Post-Dial Delay 63 ms
Call Setup Time 78 ms
Media Delay 188 ms

MOS Analysis FROM Boston To You
MOS analysis chart
Media Quality
MOS
4.4 / 5.0
(Best with G.711 is 4.4)


Degradation Sources
Codec 0.58 100.0%
Latency 0.00 0.0%
Packet Discards 0.00 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.00 0.0%
Codec G.711 (PCM at 64kbps,
20ms RTP payload,
80kbps IP BW)
Round-Trip
Latency 117 ms
Packet Discards 0.0%
Packet Loss 0.0%
Loss Periods
Min: 0 ms
Avg: 0 ms
Max: 0 ms
No Loss
Jitter
Min: 4 ms
Avg: 6 ms
Max: 20 ms
Signaling Quality
Post-Pickup Delay 91 ms
Call Setup Time 89 ms
Media Delay 123 ms
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Steve48
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Do you have the same download problem if you disconnect the Vonage adapter? How about if you leave the adapter on line, but unplug and power down the two cordless phones? Is the computer to which you're downloading running wireless? If so, do you have the same problem if you plug it directly into the router? What happens if you disable QoS?

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tweber
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Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Steve,

thanks for the troubleshooting questions..

Steve48 wrote:
Do you have the same download problem if you disconnect the Vonage adapter?


If I dc'd the adapter there'd be no way to know if I was having the problem of phone noise while downloading, as I wouldn't have any phone service.

Steve48 wrote:
How about if you leave the adapter on line, but unplug and power down the two cordless phones?


Same as above - I wouldn't have phone service as this is my only source of phone service with Vonage.

Steve48 wrote:
Is the computer to which you're downloading running wireless?


No.. It's connected via ethernet.

Steve48 wrote:
If so, do you have the same problem if you plug it directly into the router?


I tried putting the Motorolla adapter in front of the router and had the same problem.

Steve48 wrote:
What happens if you disable QoS?


I tried disabling QOS and had the same problem.

Thanks again for the ideas Steve.

I will say this; if I throttle back my ftp speed via the ftp program I have to go all the way down to 45kbps.. then the noise goes away. But, locking it down to 45 (compared with 2400) is quite a sacrifice..

Tom
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Steve48
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Tom,

Thanks for the extra information. I had misinterpreted your problem to mean that you were having excessive errors in the download due to digital noise. Now I understand that it's noise on the phone line during download.

The PC is plugged directly into the Linksys, and not into the Motorola? When you say that your real upload and download speeds are 2400 and 400, are these the numbers that SBC has given you, or are they measured? (Vonage has a link to a speed test site under their help menu option.)

I'm still a bit concerned about the wireless router and the cordless phones. We've seen some reports that cordless phones that are supposed to be 5.8 GHz are actually 5.8 in one direction and 2.4 in the other, opening the possibility of interference from 2.4 GHz routers. Can you try disabling the wireless function in the router? Can you find a simple analog test phone somewhere? Do you have a DSL filter between your adapter output and the phone?

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Orlando, FL
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tweber
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Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Steve48 wrote:
Tom,

The PC is plugged directly into the Linksys, and not into the Motorola? When you say that your real upload and download speeds are 2400 and 400, are these the numbers that SBC has given you, or are they measured? (Vonage has a link to a speed test site under their help menu option.)


Yes, the pc is connected to the linksys router in port three.
The Motorola adapter in port one (with the qos settings).

These numbers are based on speed tests through Vonage and toast.net and are in fact a bit conservative. They're the lowest numbers I got on several tests.

Steve48 wrote:
I'm still a bit concerned about the wireless router and the cordless phones. We've seen some reports that cordless phones that are supposed to be 5.8 GHz are actually 5.8 in one direction and 2.4 in the other, opening the possibility of interference from 2.4 GHz routers. Can you try disabling the wireless function in the router? Can you find a simple analog test phone somewhere? Do you have a DSL filter between your adapter output and the phone?


There is a dsl filter on the motorola adapter. II tried disconnecting the wireless phones. I also connected to an analog phone. Then I disabled wireless all together on the router. (I did all of these things separately, testing after each one).

Still no luck. These do seem to be very good trouble shooting steps.

Do you thing the Motorola adapter may be bad?

Thanks again for your efforts.

Tom
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Steve48
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

tweber wrote:
Do you thing the Motorola adapter may be bad?


Odder things have been known to happen, but I don't see an easy way to pin it down. We could try the Linksys, though. How about temporarily leaving it out? Go straight from the DSL modem to the Motorola, and plug the computer into the Motorola. For that matter, have you tried plugging the computer into the Motorola, with the Linksys still in place?

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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: line noise when downloading - any ideas? Reply with quote Back to top

Real download QoS does not exist, at least not on a normal ISP running a consumer router.

Your ISP would have to prioritize the packets, and there is no common mechanism for that to happen. Inbound QoS is simply going to prioritize what happens to the packets once they are in your router. At that point, it's too late unless your ISP is faster than your LAN.

The bottleneck is happening at or before your modem (in my case, the modem itself has the bandwidth clamp, in some cases your ISP may be doing it dynamically). In either case, your router cannot "reach out" and control that bottleneck, it can only take the packets as sent.

Yes, it could potentially "delay" some packets in the modem and dequeue other packets early, but why? The bottleneck has already happened. Might as well just handle all the packets in order at that point.

_________________
Comcast Cable (3m down / 256k up) -> Linksys BEFCMU10 v2 (DOCSIS 1.0) -> WRT54G v4 ("Tomato" firmware) -> the rest of my network including a WRTP54G (Firmware: 5.01.04)
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tweber
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Steve48 wrote:
tweber wrote:
Do you thing the Motorola adapter may be bad?


Odder things have been known to happen, but I don't see an easy way to pin it down. We could try the Linksys, though. How about temporarily leaving it out? Go straight from the DSL modem to the Motorola, and plug the computer into the Motorola. For that matter, have you tried plugging the computer into the Motorola, with the Linksys still in place?


Steve,

I have tried plugging the motorola in before the Linksys (in front of it) and I still had the problem.

I just tried taking the linksys out of the loop entirely and the motorola wouldn't sync. It stalled out while blinking 4 times. I thought perhaps there was a firmware upgrade being pushed through so I let it blink (with the computer off and only connected to the modem) for about 15 minutes. Still no go. So, for now I set it up as before to try again later. (Ran out of time, as guests are coming for dinner).

I'm going to try again in the morning. I'll let you know how it goes.

Tom
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Steve48
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

So does this mean that he's just out of luck? His speeds are good, and I don't see a lot of other people reporting this problem.

Why doesn't QoS in the local router relieve bottlenecks upstream by not accepting (not being ready for) new packets from the low priority source?

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NateHoy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Steve48 wrote:
So does this mean that he's just out of luck? His speeds are good, and I don't see a lot of other people reporting this problem.

Why doesn't QoS in the local router relieve bottlenecks upstream by not accepting (not being ready for) new packets from the low priority source?


It does, to a very small extent, but that's not truly prioritizing the packets.

If the FTP packets are flooding in, then the acknowledgments outbound will also flood out, and the FTP won't be slowed down at all.

If the FTP client has a way to be slowed down, then of course as soon as the stream of data slows down, the acknowledgments will also slow down, and the stream will stay slower. So if you could throttle the FTP bandwidth, then it should be, to some extent, self-correcting.

However, since the LAN is slower than the WAN, prioritizing the packets ain't gonna cut the mustard, since all local traffic happens at 100mbps (or if your LAN card is really old, 10, or whatever your wireless is). So the instant a packet comes out of the bottleneck, it's going to hit your FTP client, no matter what.

If you have a router that's sophisticated enough to allocate bandwidth, rather than merely prioritizing it, you MIGHT be able to help out. Just tell the router that that FTP client only gets, say, 20kbps, and the FTP server will only flood briefly until the acknowledgments start coming in slowly, then the stream will self-correct, to an extent.

But, since QoS is prioritizing packets that are coming from a thin pipe into a thick pipe, well, it's sorta like having a tollbooth on an onramp with all lanes getting equal priority, then putting a second tollbooth with 500 extra lanes, and reserving 1 or 2 for emergency vehicles. At that point, everyone's already been through the slow bit, including the emergency vehicles, so there isn't much conflict anyway. So the FTP packets will reach the client, QoS or no, as fast as they can clog the bandwidth, and the FTP client and Vonage line are fighting on equal terms.

Since the Vonage line ignores dropped packets (UDP) and the FTP client asks for a resend of them (TCP), the bottleneck will actually force the FTP client to ask the server to resend any lost packets, exacerbating the bottleneck. This means that even if you throttle the FTP client to an extent, the resend requests will still go out if the packets exceed keepalive, and you waste tons of inbound bandwidth.

_________________
Comcast Cable (3m down / 256k up) -> Linksys BEFCMU10 v2 (DOCSIS 1.0) -> WRT54G v4 ("Tomato" firmware) -> the rest of my network including a WRTP54G (Firmware: 5.01.04)
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